I've built a 2-3S 3" toothpick with 1204 5200kv motors, F411/20A ESC AIO board.

It flies fine and is much faster than expected, but it is EXTREMELY sensitive on the controls, especially on way axis!
During the first flight every it overshooted every time I turned and spun around like a rear wheel drive car!

I have tried to tame it with Actual Rates and Expo in BF and its better, but still way to sensitive!

Anyone who can recommend some BF presets that might work and/or where I should start with the PID tuning?

Is this on default Betaflight rates?

You might want to post your dump up and let everyone have a peek. Someone might be able to see something errant in it.

Yes, it's on default BF rates, I have only changed the Actual Rates and Expo.

Posting the dump as soon as I get home!
Though I dont think it's anything wrong with it, think it's a tuning ting since it's acting normal except for the extreme sensitivity.

decrease feedforward value - the defaults are too high for very nimble quads. i general use a lowered ff value of 60-80 on all axies.

i would suggest to sisable throttle boost as first step, to gain more throttle controll if you struggle there wizh sensitivity.

both are boost features, does boost more as faster stick command is applied. its doesnt help for highly nimble or powerfull quads.

for a preset, mark spatz does provide some solid basic adjustements according the rotorsize and voltage.

as a first "tuning" step, i would suggest to try two different triblades.
maybe the lightweight gf3013x3 or the gf3020x3, those might be less agressive by lowered motor response.
biblades are more difficult to tune in general.

Don't be timid about applying some expo.  For all my stuff I changed the roll and pitch from 70 to 20 and changed both expos to 0.90.  Then I changed the throttle expo to 0.50.  Much tamer on the controls.  This works for everything from 65mm tinywhoops to a 3" Cinewhoop.

Document your changes so you can always go back if necessary.

I love these toothpick style of quads, 

Just wondering if your quad has a physical tune issue.

Looking at your antenna,if you were to do a quick snap roll, the quad will stop but the antenna would keep moving then stop putting a shock or vibration feedback back in flight control, and hence show up as overshoot, or yaw washout etc - it could give a rather awful feel when flying. Maybe swap that out for a whip antenna as for testing

Other things to check make sure that the usb port does not touch the frame, as that will cause a similar issues.

How do I know is that I have had 2 quads that had similar issues, and Betaflight tuning really couldn't help.

• I had a Walksnail Happymodel bassline BNF, which had a motor plug touching the frame, as well as the the stack screws where not done up and allowed to rock around a bit, it was actually poor QC from Happymodel (Fixed via pulling the quad apart as redoing the stack setup) 
  
• A recent build that's on this forum, my Happymodel Mobula8 nutjob I called it, which had wires pushing up against one of the hoops, (Fix carve some material out of the hoop, that allowed clearance for the waires.)   
  

I would go as far as to say physical tuning is more important than Betaflight tuning, give the quad a good shake make sure nothing moves.

I'm going to try with lower feed forward and some more expo.
Throttle boost is already disabled and physical tuning is in order, nothing is thouching the fc, screws for fc is properly tightened etc.

I had a whip antenna on for the first to flights and have flown three packa with the CP antenna and there was no significant difference in flight behaviour, and this one is built mostly for low altitude cruising, for freestyle I have a 3" and a 5" Apex.

Posting a dump before I go out flying later this afternoon.

Thanks for al the help so far!

Cheers from Sweden

Changed the ff values and added a tiny bit more expo.
Throttle boost is set to 4.

Dump attached

Just flew two packs with lower FF and throttle boost lowered from 5 to 3 and it´s getting better, or it´s at least a little bit less sensitive.

It´s anoying to fly it when I have to be so verry careful with the sticks, a lite to much stick movement, event in a gentle turn, and it "spins out"..

I generally adapt to high sensitivity. Like for example stock Quicksilver is far more sensitive than stock Betaflight. On Betaflight you do a roll and it moves constantly at a set speed. On Quicksilver roll speed is very fast on full deflection, maybe 3-4x the speed of Betaflight rates. But I just don't push the sticks as far.

Of course you have to adapt to one quad being more sensitive then another quad, but this one is way to sensitive for that!


As it is set up now I only use a few percent of available stick movement when flying, there is like 0.5-1mm difference in stick movement between a turn and a flip or spin, reducing FF, throttle boost and adding more expo helped a bit, but it's still way to sensitive so going to try with a couple of different settings regarding FF, throttle boost, expo and Actual Rates and some 3 blade props.

So far apart from QS I have never had a quad so completely different in sensitivity. For me anyway, the rate of movement is governed by the rates set in whatever FC firmware I am using and since I never touch the rates, they are setup at whatever the default for 4.3.1 is. So my 2" 1102 rolls at exactly the same rate as my 2.5" 1202.5 and the same rates as my Meteor75 1102 and Meteor65. Which is what perplexs me about your issue. Albeit I am a little different in that every quad in my fleet runs the same firmware version, including new additions, I use a default config with nothing but the VTX table imported and then setup everything else by hand. They all run an older stable version. But apart from that, things are different, motors, weights, control links, vtx. But they all fly exactly the same in terms of axis rotation speed.

its a good problem you are having cause its solvable softwarewise, we often try to make it responsive and noz calm down :-) thats ultralight response :-)

i mostly use betaflight ratesystem and personal i dont use expo generaly, i use superrate to flat out the center sticks area. you can watch curve displayed next to the rate settings. actual rate is different but might cover the same with different settings.

I flew three packs today with even lover FF and throttle boost, a little more expo and changed the rates a bit more, now it's flyable and only yaw that is overly sensitive.

On al of my other quads I have started with the same basic setup and only have had to do some small adjustments to suit the type of flying the quad is intended for, but this one is somehow different.

Maybe the small footprint of the frame makes the quad more sensitive? The frame is very compact and the motors sits close together, the distance between the motors is even smaller than on my 2.5" toothpick frame.

Hi Swequad,

I have one quad that was way more responsive than I liked and could
barely handle it. In my case, I set the throttle limit to 60 percent which 
tamed that thing right down. Now it flies fine and I can control it.

I don't know if this will work in your case since no one has yet suggested
it, but, it is an easy thing to change. Just a thought.


set throttle_limit_type = scale
set throttle_limit_percent = 85    << or what ever
save

To remove the throttle limit:

set throttle_limit_type = off
save

Later, iFly