(18-Apr-2024, 10:32 PM)mstc Wrote: A 1S whoop will be more flexible if you will also be flying it indoors, but a 85mm might be a little on the large side.

My first FPV-ish drone was a Walkera QR-X350 (around the same time) and the video on that was horrible. Then I got a ZMR250 mini quad and flew with a keychain camera (hey it did 1080p), and actually had a lot of fun with that. But when the boss bought me a Phantom 3 Pro, that gimbal stabilized video quality just completely blew my mind. Of course today its such a different story, just pick up a bnf or pick up a recording digital FPV system, add some software stabilization and you get video quality you wouldn't even dream of back then (or pick up a DJI mini).

For a WS build, maybe go with a 3S toothpick. 5000kv is good for 3S on 3" props. You should still get 6+ minutes if you don't go too heavy on the weight.

Yeah, those were the days. I still remember the video of 3 guys in a parking garage throwing around a 450 plastic frame. Then they threw the frame out of the 3rd floor garage and claimed how indestructible it was. Their first flight controller was called the Wookong for a single main rotor RC helicopter. Then their first FC for a quad was the Naza. I still have one in my junk drawer. That thing went to full power during a firmware update and did quite a bit of damage.

Who would have thought DJI becoming such a power house nowadays. 

For a 3S build I actually have a Flywoo Explorer LR with 4" prop. I bought it as an analog (actually I pretty much wrote it off because GetFPV sent it via some obscure method and it never showed up for a month). Then I was looking for a frame to try out one of my Walksnail setup so I stuff that in the Flywoo frame. Works well. It has the "Pro" and I have yet to test it in low light flying. That's about my good cruising quad right now. With a 650 mah 3S I can get 6 to 7 minutes. I have some larger packs but that means heavier and I have to use more throttle thus more noise.

So the 3" tooth pick maybe I should really think about trying light weight. Not quite as light as the T Motor Feather 120 though. That thing is light and quiet but it wobbles a lot in the slightest amount of wind.

(18-Apr-2024, 09:35 AM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: >>Most people class them as disposable items which won't last many flights<<

Ok, I finally wrapped my head around them as disposable packs. So I just ordered 12 more packs. So I won't expect a long life span. 

I am also getting a bit more used to timing my flight to no more than 3 minutes and I am getting a bit used to that. 

If you already have the T-motor feather, that should check your box for ultra light 3" 2S pick. I imagine you get very long flight times with that and its ok for cruising, but it is only analog. LR4 is nice for going out further, even better if you can get the GPS to work. My analog V1 was one of my favorites back in the day. For cruising you can try some low C packs (60C), GNB has a 1100mah pack that weighs only 70g.

But a 3" 3S Walksnail pick will be lots of fun in the back yard. Here is mine with 1204-5000 motors on a deadcat (pickish) frame. A little weighty, but it is still pretty agile and a nice cruiser with nearly all props out of view.
https://youtu.be/tX71poeO-jc?t=1

(18-Apr-2024, 11:17 PM)mstc Wrote: If you already have the T-motor feather, that should check your box for ultra light 3" 2S pick. I imagine you get very long flight times with that and its ok for cruising, but it is only analog. LR4 is nice for going out further, even better if you can get the GPS to work. My analog V1 was one of my favorites back in the day. For cruising you can try some low C packs (60C), GNB has a 1100mah pack that weighs only 70g.

But a 3" 3S Walksnail pick will be lots of fun in the back yard. Here is mine with 1204-5000 motors on a deadcat (pickish) frame. A little weighty, but it is still pretty agile and a nice cruiser with nearly all props out of view.
https://youtu.be/tX71poeO-jc?t=1

Yes the T Motor Feather is the ultimate ultra light. I get really good flight time with a 1S 660 mah GNB. I just cannot fly it in much wind. Good for cruising in the evening. Seems like I did make a video of that.



Lousy image quality but you get the idea.

I actually don't even try to take the LR out any further than my backyard because I am paranoid of losing it. Ok good idea to look for low C packs and light weight packs. I have quite a few packs but they are high C and has all the heavy and thick shrink wraps.

3" 3S Walksnail can be lot of fun for sure. So I should really keep that in mind when I build. That's a nice video. Great image quality. Pretty much what I am wanting to do.

7800kv is really more in the 2S range, flying with a 2S pack may give your feather more stability. I imagine you would be fine sticking with 3" low pitched biblades even if it is a little overpropped for 1102 motors (just don't get the HQ biblades).


As for the FC for a 3" pick, I wouldn't go with a stack. It would take up to much height and adds too much weight. A single AIO with onboard ELRS fit much nicer and if your motor comes with plugs, some AIOs also have motor plugs making setup very quick.

(19-Apr-2024, 12:47 AM)mstc Wrote: 7800kv is really more in the 2S range, flying with a 2S pack may give your feather more stability. I imagine you would be fine sticking with 3" low pitched biblades even if it is a little overpropped for 1102 motors (just don't get the HQ biblades).


As for the FC for a 3" pick, I wouldn't go with a stack. It would take up to much height and adds too much weight. A single AIO with onboard ELRS fit much nicer and if your motor comes with plugs, some AIOs also have motor plugs making setup very quick.

Ah ok, I guess going to 2S and smaller props will no longer be the quietest quad. Yes I am sure it will be more fun to fly. Right now I have the three blade 3" props.


Yeah you are right about the stack making it tall and heavier.

Any recommendation on AIO flight controllers? 20mm or 25.5mm. I think 25.5 will actually be better since the Walksnail 1S VTX has 25.5 mm holes spread.

25x25 AIO will pair up nicely with the WS VTX to make a two board stack. There are quite a few HD only AIOs these days with onboard ELRS and option to use motor plugs. These have a digital VTX plug so you can also plug in the 1S VTX making it even easier to setup. However most provide vbat, so 3S max for the 1S VTX, also the WS plug is a 4p while the AIOs usually have a 6p connector (for DJI), but the order is the same, just have to line up the plug correctly to one side.

Probably not the most reliable, but also not the most expensive, I use a lot of Betafpv and Happymodel AIOs for micro builds as they pack a lot in a light package. Both of these are F405, but motor pads are a little tiny if you want to direct solder motors there are better alternatives. The Betafpv F4 2-3S 20A AIO FC V1 is nice that you can set the plug to output 5v or 9v, but has a protrusion in the rear so you need to verify it fits your frame. Happymodel Super F405HD ELRS 2-4S is a similar board without any protrusions, but the plug puts out vbat so you have to be careful not to plug a 4S lipo which would fry the Walksnail (or solder the vtx power to a 5v pad). Both boards come with a flimsy enamel wire ELRS antenna, but you can solder on a better one if you feel the need.

(19-Apr-2024, 03:52 AM)mstc Wrote: 25x25 AIO will pair up nicely with the WS VTX to make a two board stack. There are quite a few HD only AIOs these days with onboard ELRS and option to use motor plugs. These have a digital VTX plug so you can also plug in the 1S VTX making it even easier to setup. However most provide vbat, so 3S max for the 1S VTX, also the WS plug is a 4p while the AIOs usually have a 6p connector (for DJI), but the order is the same, just have to line up the plug correctly to one side.

Probably not the most reliable, but also not the most expensive, I use a lot of Betafpv and Happymodel AIOs for micro builds as they pack a lot in a light package. Both of these are F405, but motor pads are a little tiny if you want to direct solder motors there are better alternatives. The Betafpv F4 2-3S 20A AIO FC V1 is nice that you can set the plug to output 5v or 9v, but has a protrusion in the rear so you need to verify it fits your frame. Happymodel Super F405HD ELRS 2-4S is a similar board without any protrusions, but the plug puts out vbat so you have to be careful not to plug a 4S lipo which would fry the Walksnail (or solder the vtx power to a 5v pad). Both boards come with a flimsy enamel wire ELRS antenna, but you can solder on a better one if you feel the need.

Ah ok, yes I have looked and there are quite a few FC with 25.5 mm hole pattern. Having the HD plug will be really nice. I will get one just for the feature. The 1S WS VTX comes with a plug on the FC side and soldered on the the VTX. So if I don't have to snip the plug off and solder to the FC that will be nice.

OTOH I have on hand the GEPRC F411 35A AIO. I know that is over kill for a 2 S tooth pick but I do have it on hand. The link here said 25.5mm. However the instruction sheet the is in the box side 26.5 mm. I just measured them and I think they are closer to 25.5 mm so it should fit. Ah nevermind I just saw the line that said they changed from a 26.5 to a 25.5 on June 2022. 

https://geprc.com/product/gep-f411-35a-a...sc-25-5mm/

It does have a DJI receptacle but the positive side is Bat so probably flight pack voltage for the bigger version WS VTX and not the 1S. I did buy it specifically for my WS HD Pro. So I need to solder the power for the VTX to a 5V pad. Not a deal breaker since I already have it.

No receiver so I need to solder my own. Not a deal breaker there either. Just a few more grams. I do have extra ExpressLRS Rx on hand also.

I will continue to look.

If you already have the AIO and a spare ELRS RX then you can certainly use it unless you were keeping it for a larger build. The big motor pads will make it easier to solder if you are using motors without plugs. It does add maybe 4-5 grams, not too significant for 3S.

Although you could put the larger WS VTX on a 3" pick, it is significantly heavier and bulkier and would definitely move it to the heavy end, and 1204 motors may feel lacking. Personally I'd stay with the 1S board, if you really want to use the heavier and long pro camera and can mount it in your frame, it also works with the 1S board. The 1S VTX will accept up to 13v input, so you could run it off 3S. I typically use 5v or lower on my builds, but I did setup one recently on vbat.

(19-Apr-2024, 04:41 AM)mstc Wrote: If you already have the AIO and a spare ELRS RX then you can certainly use it unless you were keeping it for a larger build. The big motor pads will make it easier to solder if you are using motors without plugs. It does add maybe 4-5 grams, not too significant for 3S.

Although you could put the larger WS VTX on a 3" pick, it is significantly heavier and bulkier and would definitely move it to the heavy end, and 1204 motors may feel lacking. Personally I'd stay with the 1S board, if you really want to use the heavier and long pro camera and can mount it in your frame, it also works with the 1S board. The 1S VTX will accept up to 13v input, so you could run it off 3S. I typically use 5v or lower on my builds, but I did setup one recently on vbat.

Yeah since I already have the FC and Rx it will be pretty easy to just use those. Unless I find something that strike my fancy. I looked at all the FC with HD connector receptacles. They are all for the DJI system and higher voltage than 5V. No big deal I don't mind snipping the plug off and soldering. I actually did that on the bigger VTX when I couldn't get the BetaFlight OSD to show on the goggles.

I will decide on the FC when I find me some motors.

My larger WS VTX is on the Flywoo Explorer and I am not taking it off.   . That's the issue with the digital setup. They have the camera already connected to the VTX so I have to take the FC stack off to get the mipi cable underneath. PITA.

You mean the 1S VTX can handle up to 13V? I didn't know that. All the literature said 3.7 to 5V. I better keep to the 5V pad on the FC. 

No I don't need the pro camera on a 3" tooth pick. If I want to keep it light I may as well learn to keep it light. One of the main reason I don't even look at the DJI O3 setups.

For the 1S VTX check the version printed on the board. The older v2 is limited to MAX 5v, but the newer v3 that started shipping in July last year, takes up to 13v. Some of the older packaging was not updated so check directly on the board.



And for the VTX plug, so far only seen this on the Betafpv HD AIOs (but again you can run off 9v as well if it is a v3 board)

(19-Apr-2024, 02:28 PM)mstc Wrote: For the 1S VTX check the version printed on the board. The older v2 is limited to MAX 5v, but the newer v3 that started shipping in July last year, takes up to 13v. Some of the older packaging was not updated so check directly on the board.



And for the VTX plug, so far only seen this on the Betafpv HD AIOs (but again you can run off 9v as well if it is a v3 board)

Ah ok, I just checked I have the V2 board so I best keep to 5V. I will also look for the BetaFPV FC to see if that will work for my build. Thank you.

mstc, if you put 9V through the V3, does it run any cooler due to consuming less mA?

I learned something today.

In these tiny quads WEIGHT does matter......a lot.

So I changed camera and went with the Baby Ratel. I didn't think weight mattered that much. However I lost at least 30 seconds in flight time and I was blaming the battery.

Some GNB 380 mah packs came and I tried them. Nope, they didn't give me any more flight time. For that matter the quad felt worse. More sluggish.

Today I wanted to change to another camera again. However this time I checked the weight. The Runcam Racer Nano 2 is very nice but much much heavier at 3.6 grams. Heck I am not used to thinking in grams. 

Ok so I pulled the canopy off and weigh the Baby Ratel and the "light" canopy. That's 4.8 grams.

I weigh the BetaFPV CO3 camera with the original canopy and that's 4.2 grams. Does that .6 grams make that much difference?

The only way to tell is to test fly it. 

YES, it does make a difference. I have the throttle position on my OSD and I can tell I am using less throttle to fly. I also gained close to 30 seconds flight time. 

This is hard for me to wrap my head around. 1/2 a gram will give me 1/2 a minute?

So I went ahead and ordered me some of those super light weight canopy to see what happens if I save more grams.

https://pyrodrone.com/collections/betafp...oose-color

This is nuts but kind of fun. I just have to suffer with the lower image quality from the CO3 camera.

Other easy ways to lose weight.

- If you have 4 screws in each motor remove two from each. You can use thread lock to stop the remaining two falling out.
- Try reducing size of Lipo to 300-350mAh. Dogcom 320mAh weighs 8.1g, Dogcom 300mAh weighs 7.5g.
- You could use the BetaFPV Air canopy 0.74g and that would shave an even bigger chunk from your weight. if you are only flying this indoors, it would be fine. Air canopy plus C02 would be 2.14g or 2.26g with the C03.
- You could replace the motors with lighter motors. The Happymodel EX0802 weighs 0.1g less than the BetaFPV 0802, so that would be a 0.4g saving. or you go the other way and go to say the RCiP 0802's that are slightly heavier, but produce an additional 8g of thrust per motor @ 100%.
- If you want to take it to the nth degree, you could cut the connectors off the motor wires and remove them from the FC, then solder the motor wires directly to the FC.