I just got this model and I've flown it pretty aggressively and had no issue until today.  For whatever reason, I guess I bumped the toggle such that it was in Acro mode but Air mode was off (I disable permanent air mode in betaflight - the wisdom of doing so is debatable).  I did a throttle bump/chop and attempted a roll and basically the nose came up and it spiraled to the ground.  I thought maybe I had clipped a tree on exit so I did it again and the same thing.  I then realized I wasn't in Air Mode and flipped the toggle and did a bunch of rolls with no errors.  I went back to Acro only (no air) and did a slower roll and it was fine but the faster attempt failed again so it has something to do with a betaflight setting only affecting Acro but not Air mode.  My settings are 670 for all three axes with no expo.  Any suggestions on what settings to check?

I would have thought that was the expected behaviour with "Air Mode" off, as with what you have mentioned "chopped the throttle".  The only reason I can think what someone would set "Air Mode Off", is to practice perching, indoor flying or the worry of hitting something. If the reason of having "Air Mode Off" is the concern with crashing or hitting something, maybe consider enable "Air Mode" permanently on and enable "crash_recovery" on

To enable "crash_recovery" in Betaflight CLI
set crash_recovery = on
save

Having "set crash_recovery = on" has save me so many times as for the walk of shame, or a difficult find my quad recovery process.

From earliest quad times way back I have had Air Mode set on a switch.  I usually landed the earlier less capable Betaflight version quads switched in Angle with Air off, convenient for precision landing and no bounce if disarm not perfect. It stuck as just easier. I watched those around me tumbling "arrivals" and occasionally breaking their quads landing in Acro/Air and thought, you know what.......

I have never had any issues with switching Angle/Horizon/Acro in flight, they all have their uses.  I prefer and can cope with very nervous set ups, as starting RC flight back in 1972 there was little option if you wanted an aerobatic plane when you had no TX rates, no expo, no profiles, crude resolution servos, etc, etc.  Would like as many £1's as the times a fellow pilot has thrust a Tx at me with a plane way out of control only to struggle myself since they have only set one rate at glacial throws.

Angle is a decent way to enable flight through deep scraggle or inner tree branches without stress, and I don't believe in making things more difficult for the sheer hell of it!!  (I DO throw a quad around a lot too, in Acro).

As an aside, over the years when I have let others fly my planes the usual response is "Geez, how the flip do you manage THAT", as they desperately reach for the rates switch!

It was different more than 50 years ago!!

(23-Jun-2024, 08:28 AM)BadRaven Wrote: It was different more than 50 years ago!!

Once I learned more about the complex and flexible technologies the modern days are definitely a lot easier than 50 years ago. There were a lot of risks involved 50 years ago when flying RC.

(23-Jun-2024, 01:48 AM)Cyberess Wrote: I would have thought that was the expected behaviour with "Air Mode" off, as with what you have mentioned "chopped the throttle".  The only reason I can think what someone would set "Air Mode Off", is to practice perching, indoor flying or the worry of hitting something. If the reason of having "Air Mode Off" is the concern with crashing or hitting something, maybe consider enable "Air Mode" permanently on and enable "crash_recovery" on

To enable "crash_recovery" in Betaflight CLI
set crash_recovery = on
save

Having "set crash_recovery = on" has save me so many times as for the walk of shame, or a difficult find my quad recovery process.

I believe what you are saying is by chopping the throttle completely while not in air mode, I lose complete control even though I'm giving it a full left roll command?  I believe I have done quite a few loops and rolls with air mode off but it's possible I am mistaken... I'm hesitant to play around with crash recovery as when I turned it on one of my quads it would randomly drop out of the sky as if it was going into failsafe. I turned crash recovery off and it didn't happen again. I know there are some overlap settings that may cause issues based on PID values but the video I watched wasn't entirely clear on the affects of all the settings.

If you are running with no airmode, you can never kill throttle, you have to always apply throttle or the death spiral occurs and loss of control. I would leave it on, but put it on a switch with angle mode and use it for landing. Use airmode and acro while flying and switch it off when landing, but ultimately you won't need to switch it off eventually. Or, put a heavier battery on the quad, it won't bounce any more. I had the first bit of bouncing in forever with a powerful build i did a couple of weeks back. But swapping from a 450 to a 650 was enough to stop it bouncing on landing. but the best way to stop it bouncing is to learn the exact time to disarm. For me I usually fly about a foot off the ground and then cut, or come in and spin 180, apply a touch of throttle to stop momentum and cut. But don't wait for it to hit the ground before cutting.

What size Lipos are you using when flying? If you are using small size 2S packs, try say a GNB 2S 660 HV or 2S 650 non-HV. Both weigh around the 35-36g level and will go a long way to cancelling the bounce issue. I run and ran the 2S 660 HV on my Meteor85 and it was the best battery for that size. Light enough to get 5+ mins of flight, heavy enough that it didn't have issues when landing.

(23-Jun-2024, 06:57 PM)SeismicCWave Wrote: There were a lot of risks involved 50 years ago when flying RC.

Like hand cranking the engine? Metal props? From videos i've seen of people with helicopters, it looked downright dangerous just getting them to take off.

(Yesterday, 12:06 AM)Pathfinder075 Wrote: Like hand cranking the engine? Metal props? From videos i've seen of people with helicopters, it looked downright dangerous just getting them to take off.

Not that. We had something called "chicken sticks" to flip start the engines. No metal props at all once the RC hobby became main stream. Maybe when individuals were making their own back in the 1950's.

Anytime a 6 to 7 pounds plane flying at 80 MPH with not the most reliable radio system was dangerous.

(Yesterday, 12:06 AM)Pathfinder075 Wrote: If you are running with no airmode, you can never kill throttle, you have to always apply throttle or the death spiral occurs and loss of control.  I would leave it on, but put it on a 

Ok, that makes sense.  I thought you still had some control so maybe I'll just go back and enable permanent air mode.  I've gotten much better much faster than I expected and I only fly Acro now including indoors.  The only reason I might turn it off indoors in my tiny whoops tend to zing off in a random direction if I bang a wall.  Maybe I'll go back and experiment with crash recovery indoors only.

On the landing thing, I have no problem with a perfect landing with the tiny whoops.  On the bigger ones I'm trying to do as you say - bring it in to a low 1' or less hover then disarm and let it drop in the grass.

Normally the big problem with bouncing can be slightly negated by reducing motor idle, which is usually set to 5.5 on most of of my quads, but you could reduce it a bit, but be aware it opens up the chance desyncs on some motors. The heavier battery is the other way. But the more you fly and land the more you get used to not having it bounce. But you have to scale up batteries on bigger builds.

For me a 3S 3" can not be easily run on a 3S 450, it's just too light. You need a 550 or 650 and then you don't get bouncing, but you don't lose that much due to the weight. Like I did a 2.5" 1108 recently. With a 3S 450, armed, but no throttle, would bounce continuously. With a 550, you could tell it wanted to bounce, but was on that tipping point and with a 650 it was fine. There was no real loss of flight time on 3S 650 and I think it would have taken a 3S 850 with ease. I also reduced motor idle to 4.5%. So if you get bouncing try motor idle first and then play with heavier batteries. Eventually you won't think about it, unless testing something different or experimental.

I installed BF 4.5.0. Its functionality has been improved, it does not jump when landing my 2.5" and 3.5" drones, now I am retraining myself not to drop the drone on the landing mat with the "disarm" toggle switch, but to land the drone with the throttle to zero.