(21-Jul-2023, 07:19 PM)Krohsis Wrote: Interesting build.  

It will be fun to see how much range you can attain.  I have never bothered with the smaller quads as I just love bigger ones, 10 inch.  They fly so much smoother and less affected by wind etc, and I'm not scared of the FAA boogieman.   13km is my max distance I have done with my 10in, (8.2 miles one way, round trip 16.7 miles).  But the quad and system was capable of further, probably around 12-13 miles one way in idea conditions.  I'm too chicken to push it to its limits.  

Yes, jello can be affected by state of tune.  But other things affect jello as well.  Some of those are, thin arms, unbalanced props, (even small props can benefit from a balance).  On cheaper motors, the motor shafts have excessive runout, and the bearings have sloppy clearances.  Some motor shafts can have several thousandths of an inch runout outside of a quality motor.  As they say you get what you pay for.  Also, over torquing the motor mounts screws can cause deflection in the motor chassis which can affect overall motor rotational balance.  And mounting of the camera can be an issue as well.  But you guys likely know all of this.   

If you are really a range lover, switch to wings/planes.  For range and speed it blows the doors off a quad.  But then there is that FAA boogeyman again.... 

Anyway, post up some vids of how this quad flies!

Yeah I'm a little concerned that no matter how much I tune, my thin arms are always going to be prone to vibrations that I can't filter out.  Mike C and I are both using T-Motor motors so hopefully manufacturing quality can be ruled out as an issue.  Some great points about prop balancing and even overtightening motor mount screws though.  Actually I'd never even thought of the latter and will pay more attention to that on this current build, thanks!
X-class intrigues me - those big 10inch+ quads are no joke though.  Definitely want to do one of those one day.  And I don't know why I've been so resistant to wings thus far.  Probably because I know I'd love it and then need to start buying tons of plane parts.  Seeing some of the long-range stuff that Wezley Varty does, and some of the great night-time LED videos that Michael Scott Rhue & Shelby Voll do - definitely looks like fun!

(21-Jul-2023, 10:40 PM)No-Pants Wrote: are you concerned at all about airflow in your stack or do you think you have enough space?  Hard to see but it does looked pretty packed in there!

It's packed in there but I have another quad that is quite packed and no issues so I can't say I have any concerns yet. With that said, this one is a bit tighter so I guess I'll find out. I won't be sending it off very far until it's been in the air quite a few times.

(21-Jul-2023, 10:40 PM)No-Pants Wrote: Nice design but would serve you so much better in TPU I think.  Time to start putting in some hours on the 3d printer haha.  Does take some time, but even a bowden tube Ender 3 Pro can print TPU pretty well once you get it dialed in.

I did buy some TPU for this project but reading on how to get TPU printing gave me a headache. I bought my printer second hand so it was already assembled and working, and the guy I bought it from only printed PLA so no tips from him. I don't even know how to change the nozzle yet, that's the level I'm on... but yeah, I have to get into TPU eventually but first I'll see what happens with PLA. Removing supports on this thing is a bit tedious, from what I hear support removal on TPU is even worse because of the flexibility... So no, not looking forward to TPU, I'm hoping for a miracle that PLA works perfectly for this particular build

(21-Jul-2023, 07:19 PM)Krohsis Wrote: Interesting build.  

It will be fun to see how much range you can attain.  I have never bothered with the smaller quads as I just love bigger ones, 10 inch.  They fly so much smoother and less affected by wind etc, and I'm not scared of the FAA boogieman.   13km is my max distance I have done with my 10in, (8.2 miles one way, round trip 16.7 miles).  But the quad and system was capable of further, probably around 12-13 miles one way in idea conditions.  I'm too chicken to push it to its limits.  

Yes, jello can be affected by state of tune.  But other things affect jello as well.  Some of those are, thin arms, unbalanced props, (even small props can benefit from a balance).  On cheaper motors, the motor shafts have excessive runout, and the bearings have sloppy clearances.  Some motor shafts can have several thousandths of an inch runout outside of a quality motor.  As they say you get what you pay for.  Also, over torquing the motor mounts screws can cause deflection in the motor chassis which can affect overall motor rotational balance.  And mounting of the camera can be an issue as well.  But you guys likely know all of this.   

If you are really a range lover, switch to wings/planes.  For range and speed it blows the doors off a quad.  But then there is that FAA boogeyman again.... 

Anyway, post up some vids of how this quad flies!

You mention the quad/system is capable of longer distances - do you have a build thread somewhere for your 10inch?  Have you done a 7inch?  I'm most curious about battery choice as it relates to flight time for 13km of range on a 10inch.  To do 13km on my 6inch ultralight I had a 5000mah battery that can't give more than 10amps.  It was a looong gentle cruise.  I imagine a big heavy 10inch is sort of the opposite end of the spectrum with a fast and hard flight out to 13km but maybe I'm thinking about that wrong.

(19-Jul-2023, 04:51 AM)Rob3ddd Wrote:    Looks good.
 Curious to see how you like it.

How's your Black Opal build coming along?  Is there another thread I should check in on?

(22-Jul-2023, 05:47 AM)No-Pants Wrote: You mention the quad/system is capable of longer distances - do you have a build thread somewhere for your 10inch?  Have you done a 7inch?  I'm most curious about battery choice as it relates to flight time for 13km of range on a 10inch.  To do 13km on my 6inch ultralight I had a 5000mah battery that can't give more than 10amps.  It was a looong gentle cruise.  I imagine a big heavy 10inch is sort of the opposite end of the spectrum with a fast and hard flight out to 13km but maybe I'm thinking about that wrong.

I have a couple 10 inch builds, a FR10-G (a dead cat frame) and a Nasty(I named it Kraken) (a stretched X boutique frame, not sure he is making them anymore).  The FR10-G build is on here, and likely the Nasty.... I also have a couple 7 inchers, and 2 6 inchers.  The 7 inch is a nice quad, a dead cat design (399 Super G +),  and for mid range (1-3 miles) it is my goto quad.  But for long range it is 10 inch for sure.   

For most long range flights which for me tended to be around 5 miles out, cruise speed was 45-50 mph, with bursts up to as much at 90+.  I was mostly into mountain surfing here in Nevada.  I had some videos on here, but I took most of them off when the FAA started getting stupid with their rule changes and pursuing pilots.  I left some that were when I was new and learning as they had likely exceeded the statute of limitations.  But Nevada is rather monochromatic so although the terrain is entertaining, very gnarly, the ground is kind of boring.

Here is a link to the FR10 build. FR10-G  It looks like I didn't finish the build thread on here.  Oh well, you can have a peek at it anyway.

I have moved from quads to planes.  But when we travel in the RV I still take a quad.  My hobbies have shifted a bit too, so I'm not so active on the forum, and haven't kept up with the changes in the hobby, but I still love FPV, and likely won't ever get out of it.  

I am saddened that the FAA has ruined the sport/hobby though.

Oh, as a final note, I doubt you will have runout issues with T-motor.  But then again, I have been away from the quad side for awhile, so maybe they have gone bad too.

(20-Jul-2023, 09:56 PM)Mike C Wrote: Looks like a nice 20x20 AIO. I see it has a Air Unit plug also, looks nice. 13km is pretty serious range. What VTX system are you using?

I expect jello on mine too. My frame is a prototype and I was warned by the seller that it will require tuning. My vibrations might even be worse because the camera is mounted in PLA. Anyhow, the seller might have some useful tuning tips for me.

(22-Jul-2023, 05:50 AM)No-Pants Wrote: How's your Black Opal build coming along?  Is there another thread I should check in on?

  I’m having a few other problems unrelated to fpv.
 My ac compressor gave out in my car so until I get it fixed my finances are bound up.

I look forward to seeing the finished product! I just built a 6" with the Foxeer Aura deadcat frame (not lightweight). I'm also experimenting with iNav. Last week I decided to upgrade to a 7" frame and 2806 motors, but Im having issues with the motors and re-built the 6" LOL

(26-Jul-2023, 08:31 PM)Asgard Studios Wrote: I look forward to seeing the finished product! I just built a 6" with the Foxeer Aura deadcat frame (not lightweight). I'm also experimenting with iNav. Last week I decided to upgrade to a 7" frame and 2806 motors, but Im having issues with the motors and re-built the 6" LOL

Looks nice.

I've been having some thoughts about a 7" myself but I'll refrain from it for now, have too many quads as it is.

I made even more changes to the cage design. I made the RX part i little larger to fit the wires a little better, and also made it a three piece part. It now has a lid for RX compartment with a little holder for the GPS mate, and a small lid that presses the camera cable to the Air Unit.



The cage without the lids. The cable from the GPS Mate to the GPS is a long one. It's not in the photo but it takes up all the rest of the space in that RX compartment.



The lids on, the Air Unit cable lid is a perfect fit and the holder for the GPS Mate is practical.



The top plate goes in under the GPS mate. Here it is all buttoned up. Not much prop clearance but if they don't stretch I should be fine. I'll be checking for any signs of contact with the props on the cage.



Hanging the LiIon pack under the quad with only a strap is not something I am very comfortable with so I designed a holder for it. It adds just a little weight but I think it's worth it.



Another thing I wasn't too happy about is the possibility of prop destruction if the quad tips over. The battery holder with those strap slots I added under is not exactly a stable landing platform so I designed feet to screw on under the motors. Adds a few grams but I think I'll save some props with them.



Battery holder and feet in place. The quad can tip over in any direction and the props won't hit the ground (providing the ground is fairly flat):



All of these 3D printed parts do add a little weight but I think the practicality of them make it worth it. If I get really picky about weight I'm sure I can make new designs and shave a off another gram or two.

It's almost ready to go but I'm having some issues with the electronics that I need to figure out so not quite ready for test flight yet. It's constantly raining here right now anyway.

Weather is clear and electronics issues sorted so time for it's maiden flight!

Ok, the dry weight of this quad is more than I expected, it actually weighs quite a lot.



The Black Opal designer had a dry weight of 188 grams. Of coarse I wasn't expecting the same weight, his build is fairly stripped down and with analog VTX but 260 grams is more than I would have thought. Anyhow, I at least have a bench mark to start with.

Maiden flight: I wanted to test GPS rescue by switch. It worked fairly good and started to return home so I took control before landing and head out again. Next I tried fail-safe by switch. As soon as I flicked the switch the quad rose in altitude during the 1.5 second stage 1 fail-safe time, then it started to fly back so I took control and went out to try fail-safe again. This time it dropped fairly quickly. I was testing this stuff close to the ground in case of issues and I couldn't recover in time so it crashed. I was careful in doing these tests over soft grass so no damage done. Odd that it rose fairly fast on first fail-safe and descended fast on the second fail-safe but that's why this stuff needs to be tested.

I can further test fail-safe and GPS rescue later. Now on with cruise flight time testing so I recharged the pack and took it out for it's second flight. I didn't do any flippy flops, punch outs or freestyle moves, I only cruised around mostly between 30 km/h and 50 km/h (GPS speed) over a field so it was a very boring flight but I need to keep it close during these initial test flights. With my 4S 3000mAh Li-Ion pack I cruised around for just shy of 29 minutes, the Li-Ion pack voltage in goggles was 11V at time of landing (2.75V per cell). 29 minutes is a little more than I expected considering the weight, quite happy with that.

I didn't find the vibrations that bad at all. Sure there are vibrations that maybe someone would find unacceptable but for me it's fine, I was pleasantly surprised. I won't be doing any cinematic filming with this quad, I'm happy how it is now so I won't bother with TPU mounting the Air Unit camera. Maybe I'm just used to flying around with beat-up quads?

Maybe I'll go gram hunting. I just got a good deal on a second hand Vista so I might strip it and put it in for testing but I suspect that the dual antennas on the Air Units work a little better while the quad turns around at mid to long range distances. I could also clean up the cable lengths and make the 3D printed parts lighter, we'll just have to see. All in all I'm very happy with the result so far.

(28-Jul-2023, 04:30 PM)Mike C Wrote: Weather is clear and electronics issues sorted so time for it's maiden flight!

Ok, the dry weight of this quad is more than I expected, it actually weighs quite a lot.



The Black Opal designer had a dry weight of 188 grams. Of coarse I wasn't expecting the same weight, his build is fairly stripped down and with analog VTX but 260 grams is more than I would have thought. Anyhow, I at least have a bench mark to start with.

Maiden flight: I wanted to test GPS rescue by switch. It worked fairly good and started to return home so I took control before landing and head out again. Next I tried fail-safe by switch. As soon as I flicked the switch the quad rose in altitude during the 1.5 second stage 1 fail-safe time, then it started to fly back so I took control and went out to try fail-safe again. This time it dropped fairly quickly. I was testing this stuff close to the ground in case of issues and I couldn't recover in time so it crashed. I was careful in doing these tests over soft grass so no damage done. Odd that it rose fairly fast on first fail-safe and descended fast on the second fail-safe but that's why this stuff needs to be tested.

I can further test fail-safe and GPS rescue later. Now on with cruise flight time testing so I recharged the pack and took it out for it's second flight. I didn't do any flippy flops, punch outs or freestyle moves, I only cruised around mostly between 30 km/h and 50 km/h (GPS speed) over a field so it was a very boring flight but I need to keep it close during these initial test flights. With my 4S 3000mAh Li-Ion pack I cruised around for just shy of 29 minutes, the Li-Ion pack voltage in goggles was 11V at time of landing (2.75V per cell). 29 minutes is a little more than I expected considering the weight, quite happy with that.

I didn't find the vibrations that bad at all. Sure there are vibrations that maybe someone would find unacceptable but for me it's fine, I was pleasantly surprised. I won't be doing any cinematic filming with this quad, I'm happy how it is now so I won't bother with TPU mounting the Air Unit camera. Maybe I'm just used to flying around with beat-up quads?

Maybe I'll go gram hunting. I just got a good deal on a second hand Vista so I might strip it and put it in for testing but I suspect that the dual antennas on the Air Units work a little better while the quad turns around at mid to long range distances. I could also clean up the cable lengths and make the 3D printed parts lighter, we'll just have to see. All in all I'm very happy with the result so far.

Awesome, sounds like a pretty successful first flight!  My first Black Opal build came in with a dry weight of 180g, and even when I strapped an additional ~65g on top with the Runcam Orange 5 and its TPU mount, it didn't seem to affect flight time or characteristics too much.  So a half hour of flight time sounds great for 260g and a 3000mah battery to me.  That landing voltage sounds fine as well for Li-Ions.  My one major crash with my Black Opal prevented me from recovering the quad for roughly 6 hours, after which I found it still plugged in, battery down to ~1v per cell, and I can still use that battery today after a careful slow charge.  2.75 wouldn't concern me at all.  And actually that was an underslung, single strap battery pack, probably a miracle it survived both the physical crash and the voltage drop.
Great idea for the feet, I will have to try that.  This thing definitely wants to tip when it lands and I have metal debris in my motors right now that I have to deal with before I try to fly it again.
What are you going to change/update before you go for flight #2?  Tune it a bit?  Focus on failsafe behavior?  Great results so far!

Thanks. I'm quite used to Li-Ions, been dealing with them for a lot longer than LiPos. I've designed flashlight electronics and coded my own firmware, and I've always had critical voltage shutdown at 2.7 volts (with low voltage warnings at 3.1V).

Nice to read that the added weight didn't affect your build so much. I don't think gram hunting is something I'll go for, at least not for now. I'm eventually going to make a pack of 4 x 5000 mAh 21700s so I'll need to make a new battery holder. I'm curious to see what flight times I will get.

The feet are great. A couple of grams well spent. The first version I made where too hollow, they broke real easy so the ones on now are a little beefier.

For the next flight I won't do anything to the quad. I 'll fly a little more freestyle like to see how it does. Of coarse it's not going to be a freestyle quad but learning how it handles will be beneficial. I also want to test GPS rescue and especially the fail-safe behavior. Unfortunately it'll take a while as I'm moving this weekend. Right now I can just sit just out the front door and fly around soft grassy fields. After the weekend I'll have to put more effort in getting away from people as I'll be living in a much more densely populated area.

Hi Mike,

Nice looking Quad    Good Job 

Also, very good build thread. I like all of the pictures showing details.

Later, iFly 

Thanks!

While the wife was away at the gym I took the opportunity to take a last test flight before packing all my FPV stuff into the moving van. This time I did light noob-freestyle with plenty flippy flopping and generally flew much more aggressively with speeds mostly between 80km/h and 110km/h. Again pleasantly surprised. Not much prop wash, vibrations a little worse with these speeds but still OK, and battery time of coarse went down a lot with this style of flying. Got around 11 minutes before landing with the same voltage in the Li-Ion pack.

So far I'm very happy with the way it's flying. Next time out I'll be focusing on GPS rescue and fail safe testing.

More 3D printing... again...

I didn't think about that battery holder I designed would be so impractical when transporting the quad in a backpack, it had to go. I designed a new one without the bottom shelf. It has walls to keep it from moving around but the strap will have to hold it in. I used 100% infill around the screws, the rest at 40% so it should be strong enough.



I didn't like the original top plate. Sure, it's carbon fiber but fixing the GPS on it with original TPU part was annoying as I'd have to take off the top plate and then unscrew the TPU part from the bottom, and also had to use glue to close it again as two of the screws don't fit in the holes because of the Air Unit. I don't need carbon fiber top plate anyway so I just designed my own top plate with a slide in slot for the GPS and GPS mate. Normally I wouldn't have done this but the FC in it does not have onboard blackbox memory and I have no free UARTs so the idea is to solder on a wire with connector to my external blackbox (Openlager) and connect it to the GPS mate instead of the GPS when I want to try tuning. I won't need the GPS when tuning so I just have to re-configure the UART for either the Openlager or GPS.

That also meant a new air unit cage because of the way I made the previous GPS mate holder but I wanted to make some other small changes anyway:



It's a few grams lighter with the new battery holder:



I think that's it in terms of design and weight. Sure, if I want to shed more weight the logical next step would be an AIO FC with onboard ESCs. This would require less space and therefor allow shorter standoffs and a smaller Air Unit cage. Not worth the hassle though, I'm plenty happy with over 25 minutes of cruising time.