I think the bottom line is that people probably need to educate themselves as to how the DJI business model works if they are going to buy into the closed DJI ecosystem.

As a consumer of DJI products, people just have to learn to accept that any DJI product they invest their money in will have an expected end-of-life (typically 2-3 years at most). Once this date is reached, DJI will drop support for both the hardware and the firmware, then move onto new things. None of the new hardware they make for future iterations of a product will be backward compatible with any of their older hardware. DJI has a proven track record of doing this with any product they have ever sold. They only made the V2 goggles backward compatible with the standalone V1 FPV system as an afterthought because production of the V1 goggles had ceased and they were still selling Air Units and Caddx Vistas, so they had to have some goggles currently on sale that would work with them. Lets face it, all they really did was to implement a half-baked solution by bodging the original V1 firmware into the V2 goggles as a clunky dual-boot option which doesn't even work very well and which loses any bindings when switching between the two different firmwares.

As long as people are happy to either remain on old versions of DJI hardware with no support once a product reaches EOL, and hope that they can get hold of new-old-stock or used spares once the hardware is no longer manufactured, or they are happy to refresh all of their hardware equipment again with the newest latest greatest DJI offerings, then people should probably stay away from the DJI gear, or any other gear from other manufacturers that have their own closed ecosystems.

Unfortunately I think any of the digital solutions are going to be closed systems from a hardware perspective unless off-the-shelf chipsets are used, but there just doesn't seem to be anything out there right now with the sort of performance and low latency needed for FPV. Even the Divimath HDzero solution is using a custom ASIC which they own the IP for. So we are always going to fully reliant on the single manufacturer who owns the IP of the ASIC not to abandon what they are doing and leave us in the lurch. You don't get any of that with analogue for the simple reason that all of the hardware used is readily available off-the-shelf for all to use with no-one owning the IP for any specific part of the analogue ecosystem.

(06-Apr-2021, 11:31 AM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: Unfortunately I think any of the digital solutions are going to be closed systems from a hardware perspective unless off-the-shelf chipsets are used, but there just doesn't seem to be anything out there right now with the sort of performance and low latency needed for FPV. Even the Divimath HDzero solution is using a custom ASIC which they own the IP for. So we are always going to fully reliant on the single manufacturer who owns the IP of the ASIC not to abandon what they are doing and leave us in the lurch. You don't get any of that with analogue for the simple reason that all of the hardware used is readily available off-the-shelf for all to use with no-one owning the IP for any specific part of the analogue ecosystem.

Very true about working with closed systems but again this also depends on the nature of the company developing the system and holding intellectual property rights.

Not all companies are like DJI. They all have a different vision and ethical standards when it comes to doing business.

At this point, we can’t really speculate how Divimath treats its customers because it is a different entity. Only time will tell.

I feel they have provided enough backward compatibility of Sharkbyte with even their old Bytefrost system through firmware which is very positive.

They have been constantly working on customer feedback and also with open source groups like Betaflight where they have the OSD Canvas mode which is soon coming to iNav as well as Emuflight.

If Divimath closes shop because they couldn’t keep running the Digital race then I would not blame them as they need to make profits to survive.

They may have not the best product but so far they have been listening and responding to the FPV community (even though Fatshark wants to channel the feedback and control Sharkbyte development).

TBS Crossfire is another good example of a closed ecosystem that several of us use and we have seen the dedication from them to support and provide backward compatibility of all their old hardware even when new products are launched. My Crossfire Micro TX V1 is still getting feature updates even though the V2 version has been around for almost an year now.

^^^^^ These are some very good points. It's not just about the closed ecosystems but also about how these companies treat their existing customers, listen to the feedback their customers give them (or not), and continue to provide support for their older products rather than just leaving them in limbo.

TBS is indeed a very good example of that and it's why people trust them so much and continue to buy their products. They have a vested interest specifically in the hobby side of the model aviation sector and they have a proven track record of looking after their customers. We know that unless TBS physically goes under (which seems highly unlikely for the foreseeable future) that they can be relied upon to do the right thing while it's within their control. Unfortunately some other companies (like DJI) have a history of the complete opposite. People just need to keep all of these things in mind when buying any products from a particular manufacturer.

Hey Snow if you were buying now the DJI set would you risk and take the chance or ditch completely digital until something different came up?

(06-Apr-2021, 05:38 PM)Maiden Flight Wrote: Hey Snow if you were buying now the DJI set would you risk and take the chance or ditch completely digital until something different came up?

Given the current situation, if I hadn't already bought the DJI gear I think I would probably just sit back and wait to see what unfolds. I know it might sound like a strange thing to say but people who are still flying analogue and have never flown digital are lucky in some respects not to have been spoilt or know what they are missing, so they can continue to enjoy the experience of flying analogue as they always have done without it having been ruined for them from flying a digital setup.

I've been considering whether or not to just sell the DJI gear I already have, and other than some lost enthusiasm for other reasons, that has been another contributing factor as to why the build of my 5" DJI equipped quad has stagnated and it's why I've just been continuing to enjoy and fly my analogue quads. I think the most logical option will probably be for me to hold on to the DJI gear I already have and to try and drum up the enthusiasm to complete that 5" build. Then just wait to see what happens in the digital FPV space from other potential contenders. I don't think I would hesitate to switch to another solution if something viable came along which I considered as being useable and up to a reasonable spec.

(06-Apr-2021, 06:57 PM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: Given the current situation, if I hadn't already bought the DJI gear I think I would probably just sit back and wait to see what unfolds. I know it might sound like a strange thing to say but people who are still flying analogue and have never flown digital are lucky in some respects not to have been spoilt or know what they are missing, so they can continue to enjoy the experience of flying analogue as they always have done without it having been ruined for them from flying a digital setup.

I've been considering whether or not to just sell the DJI gear I already have, and other than some lost enthusiasm for other reasons, that has been another contributing factor as to why the build of my 5" DJI equipped quad has stagnated and it's why I've just been continuing to enjoy and fly my analogue quads. I think the most logical option will probably be for me to hold on to the DJI gear I already have and to try and drum up the enthusiasm to complete that 5" build. Then just wait to see what happens in the digital FPV space from other potential contenders. I don't think I would hesitate to switch to another solution if something viable came along which I considered as being useable and up to a reasonable spec.

Thank you for your honest opinion, as always.
I asked this because I think that, until now, the logical next step for an analog pilot, like me, would be go digital when able to. 
I checked some prices and I think that the goggles have a nice price but the TX units are a bit expensive.  I think I could get away with only one digital drone so in sum I would end with 1 pair of goggles plus 1 TX unit, not a bankruptcy per se.
I know that you got your DJI set recently and all of that hassle with banggood, so I just wanted your opinion since you migrated not long ago.
I guess I will hapilly remain ignorant from the HD digital system until something from a reliable (customer wise) fpv company comes up. 
Even if we get a worst, or not so good product, let me say like that, from a TBS, Fatshark (with better Sbyte version), Eachine (who knows) or any old school name, would be better than just be at mercy of DJI good will to still let caddx or other company make equipment with their chipsets.

(05-Apr-2021, 03:47 PM)V-22 Wrote: Hopefully the increased competition in the digital space will convince DJI to put a little more effort into the FPV system. If they just made a few minor changes they could maintain their monopoly on digital indefinitely:
1. Fix OSD over MSP
1a. Add ability to record OSD elements to DVR.
2. Enable HDMI-out without the smart controller
3. Fix clunky dual-boot firmware on the V2 goggles
4. Commit to some sort of long term support/manufacturing agreement to ensure availability

If DJI drops support altogether, I really hope independent developers are able to hack the firmware and pick up where DJI left off and fix these bugs.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say any of this is likely. I was just pointing out how close this is to being a great system and lamenting the fact it will likely never realize its potential due to all of the reasons discussed here.

(06-Apr-2021, 07:59 PM)Maiden Flight Wrote: Thank you for your honest opinion, as always.
I asked this because I think that, until now, the logical next step for an analog pilot, like me, would be go digital when able to. 
I checked some prices and I think that the goggles have a nice price but the TX units are a bit expensive.  I think I could get away with only one digital drone so in sum I would end with 1 pair of goggles plus 1 TX unit, not a bankruptcy per se.
I know that you got your DJI set recently and all of that hassle with banggood, so I just wanted your opinion since you migrated not long ago.
I guess I will hapilly remain ignorant from the HD digital system until something from a reliable (customer wise) fpv company comes up. 
Even if we get a worst, or not so good product, let me say like that, from a TBS, Fatshark (with better Sbyte version), Eachine (who knows) or any old school name, would be better than just be at mercy of DJI good will to still let caddx or other company make equipment with their chipsets.

No problem.

I think the price of the goggles are "OK" for what they are but it's still a lot of money when no-one really knows if the standalone DJI FPV system is heading towards a dead end. You do also need to factor in budget for at least one spare unit IMO in case the worst happens and you break the camera or you fry an Air Unit / Vista so you aren't left grounded with no supplier having stock which has happened on more then one occasion in the past, so that also adds to the cost.

It's still to be seen what these "alternative" components will be that Caddx are being licensed to manufacture and what the quality will be like. DJI previously manufactured both the Air Unit and the Caddx Vista. Caddx simply just sold the Vista (that they didn't actually manufacture themselves) with their own name on under license. Now that Caddx are taking over the actual manufacturing it is yet to be seen what it is they actually manufacture (maybe it will just be the same Vista and/or Air Unit), and what the QC and reliability is going to be like.

The other concerning thing is that the best camera that has been available to date for the standalone DJI FPV system (the square silver one that comes with the Air Unit) has now been confirmed as discontinued by DJI and it's not clear if Caddx will also take over the manufacture of that, or if the only decent available camera going forward is going to be the Caddx Nebula Pro which isn't quite as good as the DJI camera, and it only outputs 720p video which is fine for the Vista and feed to the goggles, but not for the Air Unit which records in 1080p so it really needs a 1080p camera to get the best recorded footage.

(06-Apr-2021, 08:19 PM)V-22 Wrote: Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say any of this is likely. I was just pointing out how close this is to being a great system and lamenting the fact it will likely never realize its potential due to all of the reasons discussed here.

Yes, it's disappointing and it goes to show/prove that DJI don't listen to any customer feedback and just do as they please. They also don't care about any competition or the unrealised potential of the system if they'd taken the time to listen to feedback and made the effort to polish it up. I don't think the hobby FPV space was ever really their target market and was just used mainly as a stepping stone to their own FPV Drone.

I hope I can end up eating my words, but I think it's now probably unlikely that any outstanding bugs and features will get addressed. I just wish the Betaflight developers wouldn't be so stubborn and would implement an official workaround to get warnings into the DJI FPV Goggles like the Emuflight and INAV developers have done, but the Betaflight developers don't seem to be backing down, out of principal more than anything else. Yes, it's possible to self build a custom version of Betaflight with that workaround in but we shouldn't have to be doing that.

(06-Apr-2021, 09:32 PM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: No problem.

I think the price of the goggles are "OK" for what they are but it's still a lot of money when no-one really knows if the standalone DJI FPV system is heading towards a dead end. You do also need to factor in budget for at least one spare unit IMO in case the worst happens and you break the camera or you fry an Air Unit / Vista so you aren't left grounded with no supplier having stock which has happened on more then one occasion in the past, so that also adds to the cost.

It's still to be seen what these "alternative" components will be that Caddx are being licensed to manufacture and what the quality will be like. DJI previously manufactured both the Air Unit and the Caddx Vista. Caddx simply just sold the Vista (that they didn't actually manufacture themselves) with their own name on under license. Now that Caddx are taking over the actual manufacturing it is yet to be seen what it is they actually manufacture (maybe it will just be the same Vista and/or Air Unit), and what the QC and reliability is going to be like.

The other concerning thing is that the best camera that has been available to date for the standalone DJI FPV system (the square silver one that comes with the Air Unit) has now been confirmed as discontinued by DJI and it's not clear if Caddx will also take over the manufacture of that, or if the only decent available camera going forward is going to be the Caddx Nebula Pro which isn't quite as good as the DJI camera, and it only outputs 720p video which is fine for the Vista and feed to the goggles, but not for the Air Unit which records in 1080p so it really needs a 1080p camera to get the best recorded footage.

With the spare unit, the price checks the 1000€ price tag easily and that is expensive. The thing here is really what you said, if we expend that amount of money and end up with an expensive paper weight because no more hardware is being produced it's a high stake, at least for me. From what I understood caddx or other may produce the units but don't have access to the IP so if DJI closes chipset production they will unlikely give this chipset IP to other player unless there's a good deal. That would be great because no one would be harmed with all this.

Maybe we should go pester TBS to come up with something.

I know i'd buy a TBS digital fpv system. Actually, thinking about a crossfire integrated digital fpv system gets me tingly

So just to confirm...
There are no digital alternatives to DJI?
No other companies make digital...?

(07-Apr-2021, 11:20 AM)Titanv11 Wrote: So just to confirm...
There are no digital alternatives to DJI?
No other companies make digital...?

There is the alternative sharkbyte from fatshark.

(07-Apr-2021, 11:20 AM)Titanv11 Wrote: So just to confirm...
There are no digital alternatives to DJI? 
No other companies make digital...?

The only alternative that is currently on the market is FatShark Shark Byte which uses a custom Divimath HDzero chipset, but it's quite different to the DJI system. Take a look on YouTube and you will find some reviews and side-by-side comparisons of it with the standalone DJI FPV system. One benefit that Shark Byte does have is that it's being developed by a company who has a vested interest in the FPV hobby and who seem to be listening to customer feedback.

Orqa are supposedly also working on something but they won't divulge any information at present.

FrSky have also just launched their X20 transmitter of which the HD edition has built in digital video receiver. There are no technical details released on that yet but we believe it likely also makes use of the Divimath HDzero chipset, so it will likely be comparable to the FatShark Shark Byte system.

Sharkbyte seems close but isnt quite there yet but I sincerely hope they get there.
I feel very annoyed with DJI, I may try and purchase another few Air Units but that will be the last DJI products I ever purchase.
The value of my 1 month old V2 Goggles just took a nose dive.
V1 Goggles even worse.
Sadly I'm not the only one that had heavily invested in this stupid company.
Its a big win for Sharkbyte, l can see myself getting one eventually... sigh.