(05-Jul-2017, 06:30 PM)om BD Bad Wrote: That really is a big variation!




Ooh interesting. I would guess (based on my limited understanding of the aerodynamics of Ferrari's precursor to the F1 DRS {Drag Reduction System}, their 'flexible rear wing') that a prop with more flex might have a less linear thrust curve, dropping some at higher RPM as the force of the air works to 'flatten' the profile of the blade?




Oh no... and bloody typical! 




Working with a rough average of 2kg max thrust per motor, with a possible variation of up to 0.5kg from motor and prop, (excluding possible variations in ESC's) that is a discrepancy of a quarter of the average thrust per motor..? That's huge, and a testament to how versatile these FC's are!

 


I wonder what sort of issues might arise from these thrust discrepancies when you get to the stage of transitioning..?

Still loving this thread!

Thanks for the kind comment BD, I do try to make this thread as interesting and instructive as I can so I am glad to see it is being appreciated.

One of the interesting things about writing stuff down is that it really drives the lesson home to the author as well as hopefully the reader.

After re-reading this thread I have decided that when I pull Wooden It apart to install the gear into Quadraptor I am going to re-run all of the tests again incorporating all of the lessons I have learned from my Wooden It project. That should be an interesting exercise.

So do you think another promotion is in order?

How about " Knows a lot of stuff about stuff but still does not know how to get a powerful result combined with good stability"?

Is that taking things too far?

(05-Jul-2017, 10:27 PM)fftunes Wrote: It can really go both ways (flex the prop to 'gain' more pitch), depends on the shape of the blade, and wether the front edge protrudes further from center than the rear edge. This effect is used on some helicopter blades to get a more aggressive response.

Of course, I hadn't considered that the joint between the blade and hub might not 'only' be at 50% of chord! To my untrained eye most props seem to have more protrusion on trailing edge, which also tends to be thinner than the leading edge (I would guess for durability?) which leads to the assumption that the amount of flex will be different on different parts of the blade!? 
As we all know, or very quickly find out, there is a whole load more to this flying lark than meets my untrained eye!

(05-Jul-2017, 10:27 PM)Keyboard Kid Wrote: How about " Knows a lot of stuff about stuff but still does not know how to get a powerful result combined with good stability"?

 lol, I like the way your ranks roll off the tongue!

   
SUMMATION (3)

As noted in Summation (2) it is unfortunate that when I started this project I knew ABSOLUTELY nothing about quad rotor equipment or flying because each step in my testing fell short of ideal and it was only as I progressed that I became aware of those shortcomings.

As also noted in (2) I intend to re-run all of those tests when I dis-assemble Wooden It prior to installing the gear into Quadraptor. This time under very disciplined test and logging procedures. The aim is to eliminate wherever possible those early test shortcomings and also to check that all of the components used in Wooden It have survived unscathed. The last thing I want is equipment failure in Quadraptor.

I began my component testing with a Scorpion 3020/890 motor and a Hefei King Kong 60A ESC. I had used these components for several years in my Piper Cub fixed wing UAV projects so I was quite familiar with them and I had great faith in them.
I particularly liked the King Kong ESC because of the inbuilt data logger which I found to be very useful in analysing and understanding such things as current draw, voltage drops, RPM. (See photo)

After I had spent weeks analysing motor performance data using e-calculators I finally bit the bullet and ordered 4 off Scorpion 3026/710 motors and 4 off Hefei KK 60A ESC. All of my motor and propeller testing was carried out over many weeks using the 3026 motor and the KK ESC. Having satisfied myself that all was under control I built Wooden It and installed the 4 x 3026 motors.

It was at this point while ordering the Hero FC that I was advised that the motors, props and ESC were totally unsuitable for my project and that I should use d-shot ESC and lighter motors with lighter props. Sooo… I promptly ordered a Hero FC, a set of 30A d-shot ESC and lighter props but stayed with the 3026 motors.

Thus the first flights of Wooden It were carried out using the Hero FC, d-shot ESC and the lighter props powered by Hyperion LiHV 3S batteries. The accident in the farm garage wiped out the lighter props in short order so I continued on with APC props of various shapes and sizes often in a mixed bag of whatever props I had in stock or that I could get locally in a hurry.

It is interesting that the Hero and even the subsequently installed Hobby King V3 FC had no real problem handling a mixed assortment of props. It really is a credit to the FC designers that the FC can cope with that sort of mixed load.

From the outset I was not happy with those d-shot ESC as there was a really harsh note during motor runs. I would even go so far as to say unsettling note. However test fly I did and eventually learned to hover the battery out (approx. 4.5 minutes) at a set altitude and more or less over the take-off pad. Those very early learning to fly sessions were carried at a very low AUW of less than 3.9kg.

It was only after learning to hover and started to increase the AUW that I began to realise that I was failing far short of the potential 8kg of thrust promised by those motor tests. The maximum load carried by the Hero was 3.9kg, far short of 8kg. Thus I installed the Hobby King V3 FC to see what it offered.

Now the problem with the V3 being that it was a “+” configuration FC purchased at the very beginning before the Hero when I knew absolutely, absolutely nothing about FC and did not realise there were different configurations and some FC could not be easily changed from “+” to “x”, the config required by the awkward rectangular layout of Wooden It.

The V3 was OK but very awkward to orient with one motor leading in a rectangular motor layout. The V3 had trouble coping with this layout and I came to the conclusion that whatever stability I did obtain was largely due to my flying rather than the FC.

I finally installed my four Hefei KK ESC as a matter of interest to see what difference they made and the difference was quite pronounced; much smoother, quieter and without that harsh, unsettling note. Possibly even a little more powerful.

The V3 combined with the KK ESC ultimately delivered 7.4kg of thrust using a matched set of 13 x 4.7 SF props more than adequate for the Quadraptor project. Sadly I could not use APC 12 x 6SF because the CW version of the APC 12 x 6SF is not manufactured.

So here things stand with my Naza just to hand and my not being able to do a thing with it until after I have finished with my current audio project. I can however take that riveting 47 page Naza instruction manual to bed with me and study it in the 3 or 4 minutes before it puts me to sleep. It is without a doubt the best sleeping pill I have ever used!

KK

Who is for another FPV story?

SAFE EDDY AND ALAKAZAM

This is not so much an “Oh what I would have given for FPV” story as a rather novel rethink of one of my old projects involving robotic puppets, the Star Wars Episode One camera crew, R2D2 and C3pO and movie films where the use of FPV would have added another very interesting dimension to what was already a very interesting story. So this time I suggest you blokes kick back, mint Julip in hand while I spin you a yarn sure to engross.

As my Wooden It project is on hold at the moment, to fill the void I will spin this yarn out a little with small chunks each day for the next few days, just to keep you lot entertained. If you get sick of it or deem it unsuitable tell me immediately and I will stop straight away, deleting what has already been posted.

It all began back in 1977 ......... (To be continued)

(07-Jul-2017, 02:03 AM)Keyboard Kid Wrote: It all began back in 1977 ......... (To be continued)

In a galaxy far away....!

(07-Jul-2017, 05:50 AM)Tom BD Bad Wrote: In a galaxy far away....!

BD you are impossible!

   
It all began back in 1977 ……… (BD please take note, in this Galaxy, just a long, long time ago)

As a result of the publicity surrounding the VW saga Silvertone started to become known in the TV advertising world and as a result we undertook some weird sorts of jobs from radio controlling toasters so they popped up at the correct moment in a TV commercial to me personally (as an ex-gymnast) appearing in a TV advert for Bond’s men’s underwear as their signature character, “Chesty Bond” using a vaulting horse, a second TV commercial with Bobo the clown as well as preparing the set for a music video done by the Australian pop group, The Eurogliders. It was all very interesting. The 1970s were one of the most intense periods of my life. Remember, I was building and flying target aircraft as well in those years.

So it did not come as much of a surprise when we started to attract jobs revolving around children’s TV shows. These ranged from radio controlling a Koala Bear known as Claude to a Crow who lived in a log on wheels. This Crow travelled around in his log on wheels and we radio controlled the log, converting it into a sort of Wooden 1600TLE. Sadly I have no photos of any of these activities except for two photos of Claude the Koala’s transmitter taken only a year or so ago and the poor old thing is now showing its age.

This was the first 16 channel TX (1975) that we ever did and it lacked the sophistication of the later 24 and 32 channel transmitters complete with tape recording programming used for Safe Eddy and Alakazam. Still, it worked well and served Claude for years. Claude also laid a lot of the groundwork for Safe Eddy and Alakazam with ears, eyes, nose, arms etc as well as movement along the ground. With Claude we learned the most valuable lesson of all; one man cannot control 16 simultaneous controls and so we knew from the outset that Eddy and Ali had to be programmable.

   
SUMMATION (4)

Just to get this thread back on topic for a while this posting is a summation of the firmware flashing problems that I encountered while trying to flash new firmware into my Hero FC using Betaflight, iNav and Cleanflight.

There were several questions I asked during that period that have gone unanswered to date and I am just wondering if anybody has answers to those questions?

I successfully flashed firmware into Betaflight, iNav, Cleanflight and Baseflight but I could never successfully communicate these programs. I could open the correct port OK but there was never any comms with the program and the port successfully closed.

The suggestion was put forward that I had driver problems and so I downloaded Zadig and Impulse as well as the necessary drivers; all to no avail. So here are my questions. Can anybody help? I really would like to tidy up the Hero episode.  

Question 1  It was suggested that I download “Impulse” as a solution to my driver problems. This I subsequently did but to no avail. The Impulse title page opened OK but all it ever did was flash “Searching for flight controller”. Should I have got any indication that Impulse was actually doing something?

Question 2  Each of the three programs used to flash the firmware has a “Recovery/Lost communications” paragraph outlining the steps required to re-establish comms if comms are lost. These paragraphs are identical for all three programs and are somewhat ambiguous, in that they ask for the boot strap to be applied once, but removed twice. (See photo)

I tried all manner of variations on this recovery system but again to no avail. Can anyone clear up the ambiguity in that recovery sequence for me please? I ended up with a 1” lead with a toggle switch for the boot strap so that I could quickly and easily apply and remove the boot strap.

In the end nothing worked despite hours of trying endless variations on everything imaginable. All to no avail!
So here I am in suspended animation until months end hoping and praying that my little Naza M which is now in my hand will give me the power I need combined with the stability required.

KK

The weird thing is that you even tried it on another computer and it still didn't work... did the computers ever recognize that something was connected? (like the typical windows beep-boop soundeffect)

(10-Jul-2017, 11:15 AM)fftunes Wrote: The weird thing is that you even tried it on another computer and it still didn't work... did the computers ever recognize that something was connected? (like the typical windows beep-boop soundeffect)

Hi FF, I you are referring to Impulse....absolutely nothing. No beep, no change in Impulse flashing the "Searching...." message. Nothing!

You would at least think that some sort of message would appear, but absolutely nothing.

Yet each of the four firmware flashing programs had no trouble finding the Hero and flashing the firmware.

Weird!!

(11-Jul-2017, 12:25 AM)Keyboard Kid Wrote: Hi FF, I you are referring to Impulse....absolutely nothing. No beep, no change in Impulse flashing the "Searching...." message. Nothing!

You would at least think that some sort of message would appear, but absolutely nothing.

Yet each of the four firmware flashing programs had no trouble finding the Hero and flashing the firmware.

Weird!!

FF, I finally found a video on using Impulse and it is obvious that I am doing it all wrong.

Watch the video and you will see a range of responses from Impulse as the driver is installed.

So back to the drawing board when time permits.

   
As a final farewell to the target aircraft story here are some more of the aircraft built during the 1970s... here we see the Silvertone Airforce - circa 1974.

These are the Silvertone Weightlifters, a training aircraft carrying an Infra Red source and designed primarily to train Red Eye missile operators for the ADF, although they did end up being used by our Aussie Weapons Research Establishment as well as other users for a variety of tasks.

The 1970s were a crazy, crazy time for Silvertone.

       
Safe Eddy and Alakazam (2)

However, back to Safe Eddy and Alakazam, Sometime late in 1977 we were approached by Ray McCormack, a well-known Australian musician who had an idea for an educational children’s TV show featuring two robotic puppets, Safe Eddy and Alakazam and a young girl named Violet, the only human in the show. (See photo attached. Note the bloke lying on the floor to provide movement to the Flying Carpet). The Flying Carpet sequences were shot in Chroma-Key (hence the blue background) and then transferred on to a video taken from a helicopter to give a finished illusion of the Carpet and passengers flying over various landmarks. Very spectacular on the big screen; especially the sequence taken flying low over a long surf beach; beautiful!

This TV series was to be a very big deal with 52 episodes, each episode built around a letter in the alphabet, starting at A and ending in Z. This 26 episode serial was to be repeated again making 52 episodes in total. Ray had an agreement with PBS to put it on air in America and it was Silvertone’s job to radio control the puppets and handle the programming of the tape recorders used to program the robots. This was all before computers and sadly FPV.

The robots were very elaborate and complex units. Alakazam used 24 channels to control such things as movable eyes, eyelids, ears, fingers, arms, head (in three axis) and featured a voice synchronous mouth and moustache.  Alakazam was mounted a tank kit complete with tank tracks and a mixing speed control but less the tank body. Leo De Lyon a famous American comedian provided the voice for Alakazam.

Safe Eddy was a car with a face reminiscent of Disney’s Pluto the dog and had 16 channels of control which included moveable eyes and eyelids, opening doors, blinkers, horn, lights and steering and speed control. Eddy was also fitted with a voice synchronous mouth in the form of an opening and closing bonnet. Ron Palillo who played Arnold Horshack in the TV series “Welcome back Kotter” provided the voice for Safe Eddy.

The really fancy stuff centred around the method of programming the robots. They had to be pre-programmed to the script so that they could go on stage and perform alongside a human actor, a young girl named Violet. No computers remember. As far as I know there had been nothing like this ….ever! It was a mammoth job and it cost me many a sleepless night despite the fact that we had a good staff and engineering support.

Now it was completely impossible to control and record 16 channels at one time let alone 24 so we had to come up with a system that allowed us to control and record 4 channels at a time as well as allowing us to edit or update blocks of four to accommodate last minute script changes. Something we found out much later was an absolute necessity.  Even so sometimes on the set we had as many as 4 or 5 people all crowded around the transmitters operating various controls during an emergency change of script. Sadly I do not have any photos of those transmitters; all were lost some time ago.

They were very elaborate 24 and 32 channel units with multiple joysticks, (one being a three axis stick for Alakazam’s head and neck), slider controls, rotary knobs, a row of six press buttons switches to select the various 5 channel blocks and sundry other controls and input/output jacks for the reel to reel tape recorders. They were quite large and used to sit across my lap. (See photo and I must apologise for the poor quality. It was smuggled out by one of the workers as we were not allowed to take any photos at the time.)

The photo of the two dummies (below) shows Alakazam on the left, me on the right.

This is for those not familiar with single stick transmitters which were popular in the 1970s but have faded out since.

The three axis stick controlled Aileron, Elevator and rudder on the knob.

I could handle aircraft on Mode 1 and Mode 2 but single stick I found really awkward.

They did find a limited place with helicopter pilots but again seem to have faded out there as well.

The last time I tried to purchase some stock I could not find a manufacturer but that was a few years ago.

Things may have changed since then.

KK

PS Note the frequency key plugged into the side of the transmitter to cut off all power when the TX is not in use.

Interesting idea!

A stick with up/down and a knob on the top would be the perfect emulation of the combined throttle/pitch control on a helicopter.

I can't even begin to imagine trying a different control system for multirotors though. All the work I did in my first season was about making the controls something that my conscious brain didn't have to think about. Undoing that would be painful to say the least!