(07-Sep-2017, 10:15 PM)unseen Wrote: I've not tried KISS. I run Betaflight on all my quads (except for one or two which are on old versions of Cleanflight and as they fly just fine, there's no reason to change anything). On my big Tarot Iron Man, I run Arducopter on a Pixhawk as Betaflight has no meaningful support for GPS, altitude hold and the autonomous functionality that you'd want on a flying video platform.

Both Betaflight and Arducopter are open source and run on open or easily available hardware. KISS is closed source and only runs on Flyduino's hardware. I'm sure KISS is very good at what it is designed for, but as a programmer myself, I want the ability to get into the source code if needed.

Thanks for a very concise and informative post! That saved me at least a few minutes' (if not more) researching exactly what was what.

Man, this is a great forum. I've been active on RCGroups for years, but the noise-to-signal ratio in the multirotor area is out of control. Much better here.

Thanks again!
Steve

Yeah, I escaped from RCGroups when they renamed all the Multirotor stuff to "Drone". Appealing to the lowest common denominator made an already bad signal to noise ratio even worse! Now the owners have sold RCGroups to some Canadian company which seems to have turned just about every forum they've touched into a bland graveyard, I wonder what the future holds for RCG. I can't see it being a bright one...

I'm really glad that Oscar started this forum. You couldn't hope for a nicer bunch of regulars and the knowledge level here is top notch. The fact that it hasn't attracted the armies of affiliate link farmers who only exist to push product announcements disguised as reviews ensures that content here stays interesting and useful.

Yes, I started on RCG back in 2003 and have dedicated a huge amount of time over the years to the site, mainly the Slope forum.

Parts of RCG are still somewhat useful / usable. But the multirotor forums... eh, not so much.

Interestingly, the FB group I started dedicated to slope aerobatics has started to really grow, and is now my go-to place for my slope soaring fix.

This place reminds me of the Slope forum circa early 2003... I dig it

I've never really seen the point of farcebook for discussion. It's a horrible platform for information as it seems to be designed for those who have the memory of a grasshopper. There's no permanence or structure to the discussions.

Their business model of tracking users over the entire Internet and building detailed profiles of them to sell to third parties makes my blood run cold at the thought of it. I don't use FB. I take care to ensure that neither FB, google or any other company can track what I do and where I go on the Internet. Giving up your entire private life for a free service just isn't worth it.

Yeah, the FB group I created for slope aerobatics is good for sharing videos and quick comments, but beyond that it's no place for the sort of longer-form discussion that can happen in a decent forum. With that said, a good number of knowledgeable slope pilots participate there, and it's free from the sort of noise and nonsense the more general-interest forums can provide. The folks who use it are on FB already, which is the reality for the mainstream as of right now. I'm not at all saying anyone or everyone should participate in it, but it's a fact of life at the current time. And it saves me having to maintain a forum of my own, which (having done it before) is about as thankless a task as I can imagine.

Anyways, I assume by you saying you "take care to ensure that... [no] company can track what I do" means you always use Tor to browse the web? With cookies and javascript disabled? On a computer you built yourself, composed of hardware and an OS that you've personally vetted to ensure it's up to your security standards? Connecting directly to an internet backbone with no ISP involved? :p

Because this very site, IntoFPV, like a huge swath of the internet, uses Google Analytics tracking (a free service, ironically). This gives the website owner an easy and appealing way to review which parts of their site are popular, while at the same time assuredly giving Google huge insights to user activity (as Google Analytics is used on such a huge percentage of the web). And if you're using Chrome or Safari or IE... lots of built-in callbacks to web services and the companies that produce the browsers with data about what you're doing. And then the OSes themselves have all sorts of features designed to "make your life easier" by sending all kinds of data back to the company servers. To say nothing of your ISP and the new rules around how readily they can both share and monetize your browsing and usage data.

There is no Schrodinger's Cat of internet privacy... it's dead regardless of whether you look at it or not

I don't go quite as far as always using TOR to surf, but I run Linux, use Firefox with NoScript and have very restrictive cookie policies. A handful of cookies are permanent (like the one that identifies me here), the rest are temporary and I don't accept third party cookies at all. I don't allow google analytics code or any Javascript that isn't absolutely necessary from any site. I wouldn't use Microsoft's spyware as my personal OS under any circumstances.

Thankfully, I live in Sweden and my ISP is regarded as a privacy pioneer here. They've actively fought government mandated data retention practices and wouldn't even dream of collecting my browsing activity for profit or otherwise. They have a very strong dislike of the copyright industry and their lackeys after the Swedish anti-piracy organisation actively tried to frame them by blackmailing a young guy who worked there into becoming an infiltrator and setting up a warez server in their data hall.

None of my cautious approach protects me from monitoring by the men in black of course and everything I do on the Internet that passes Sweden's border is slurped up by the Swedish equivalent of the NSA. There's very little I can do about state level snooping and still use the Internet in a free and open manner. Seeing as I don't engage in anything that might warrant the spooks taking an interest in me, I see no reason to go the extreme lengths that would be needed to evade them.

I don't like this kind of pervasive state organised monitoring as it's against the fundamental right to privacy and unless someone is under suspicion of serious criminal behaviour, the state has no right to monitor their communications, location and activity. I hope that this situation will improve, but I fear that as the world political stage drifts further and further towards authoritarianism, I might be waiting a long time for that improvement.

Absolute privacy is, as you correctly note, almost impossible to achieve. However, the approach that I use makes me almost invisible to most of the Internet's private profilers. It also has the very important benefit of vastly reducing my risks of being hit by malicious code and falling foul of identity thieves and ransomware gangs.

Good discussion about privacy and I hope people realize that it's not easy, but also not impossible to take steps to improve one's privacy online. Perfection is the enemy of the good, and there are definitely good things to do (and other things to NOT do!) to help assure as much privacy as possible

Anyways, back to my newbie questions about quads!!

I'm pretty decided on the Matek F405 AIO FC/PDB/OSD... does anyone feel this is a terrible idea?

Beyond that, I'm debating the relative merits of a BLHeli_32 ESC versus a _S. Is Dshot 1200 as important/worthwhile as it seems like it is?

I should note that I have no desire to be right on the bleeding edge of new tech - in fact, I'd rather settle for "tried and true" for my first build. I want to avoid buying dated equipment, of course, but it seems like I should be able to find a happy medium.

And then there's the whole motor thing! I'm thinking something with 2300KV is probably more than good enough for my first build.

I will plan to run on 4S from the get-go.

Is there anything else I should be considering? I can solder reasonably well, but have an old dual wattage Radio Shack iron that can almost certainly be improved upon. Happy for solder station reccos, too.

Thanks again for all the great feedback, everyone.

Imho blheli32 is not yet worth it. I've read about escs blowing up way below their expected specs on dshot1200, also some flight controllers seem to have problems with it.

The Matek F405 has a good reputation as far as I have seen. It does use the much more sensitive ICM20602 IMU, so the anti-vibration mounts that come with the flight controller are a must.

BLHeli_32 is still very much 'bleeding edge' as far as I'm concerned and the benefits of DShot 1200, just like 32KHz gyro update rates are more subjective than they are objective, so I wouldn't get hung up on chasing that kind of functionality.

The Racerstar 30A BLHeli_S V2 ESCs are superb value for money and just work.

Some good motors are essential. The various Racerstar motors are a bit 'meh', but unless you get some horribly balanced ones, are OK for the price. You can find better motors at http://www.myrcmart.com/
Their SE2205 2400kv V3 motors are stunning value at $9.99 if you buy them without a warranty. See: http://www.myrcmart.com/rcx-se2205-v3-24...11355.html (I have the 2600kv version installed on my Rebel 220 build and they're excellent.)

For the really fine soldering that is needed on most builds, a temperature controlled iron is an essential. Something with a selection of tips is also very useful so that you can work with a tip that's the right size for the job. Of course, good quality 60/40 rosin cored tin/lead solder is essential.

If you don't already have a hot air rework station, it's worth considering a combined hot air/soldering station as the hot air gun is very useful for shrinking heatshrink and working with SMD components for more advanced repair.

The rework station listed here is amazing value for the money. The iron is a little underpowered, but it's good enough for most things.

Thanks guys for the feedback. So I took the plunge, and placed my first order. I guess it's a mix of tried-and-true with a dash of YOLO

- Matek F405 AIO FC/PDB/OSD
- Emax RS2205-2300kv Racing Edition (BG had them on sale for $13.99) (I got some extras too )
- Racerstar 30A BLHeli_S V2 ESCs (thx unseen)
- Runcam Split camera w/wifi & RC25G long lens

I will plan to start with some HQ 5x4x3 v1s props - seems to give good performance and shouldn't stress the ESCs at all, based on this testing.

Now off to research VTXs and antennas, and figure out which 4S batteries to try. Suggestions welcome!

I guess I also need to carefully pick a frame that will let me fit this stuff. Still leaning towards the QAV-X, although I'm sure a Chameleon would probably be easier to fit everything into.

Steve

Nice to see that you've already found MiniQuadTestBench. When it comes to objective and trustworthy motor data coupled with good analysis, there's nowhere better!

Antennas? One word. "Pagoda" The best there is. Make them yourself or buy them ready-made. Take particular note of the designer's comments in the list of ready-made suppliers. See: http://www.maartenbaert.be/quadcopters/a...a-antenna/

VTX? Get one that you can control from the flight controller instead of having to poke tiny buttons that always end up being hard to get to. See: https://oscarliang.com/top-5-best-vtx-mini-quad/

4S batteries? About 1300mA/h with your quad, 1550 at a push. It will fly with heavier, higher capacity batteries but it will handle like a boat.

I use both Turnigy Nanotech and Tattu batteries. A 4S 1300mA/h 45-90C Turnigy Nanotech will give me about 3, maybe 4 minutes of mixed throttle acrobatic flight on a craft similar to your proposed build. Much less if hammered at full speed. The big 4S 1550mA/h 75-150C Tattu batteries power my SwiftBlade quad with 2306 2400kv motors swinging 6045 props without breaking a sweat. Flight times up to 6+ minutes if you just cruise around, drastically less at sustained high throttle, realistically 3 - 4 minutes mixed flight.

My choice in batteries is limited by local availability now that they can't be shipped by air, so I don't have personal experience of a large range. In my limited experience, these batteries perform according to my needs. I've never had a bad one and they don't cost silly money either.

As the picture Oscar posted recently goes to show; the most important battery choice is to buy respected brand batteries from official dealers. I'd far rather pay a little more and know I have the genuine product than get a cheap fake that won't perform as expected.

Yes, a pagoda looks like the best choice (spent some quality time with Joshua Bardwell and others yesterday). Or at least a very good place to start

My research into my components mix has raised some interesting questions:

1. If I'm using the Matek F405, I believe there are only two UARTs available, and only one can do serial (?)...so, if I'm running a Spektrum quad serial receiver with telemetry, will I still also have the ability to control the OSD if I use a TBS Unify Pro?
   
   
2. Will I have to choose between onboard audio and Tx-based OSD control if using a Runcam Split with the TBS Unify Pro?
   
   
3. Is a Taranis running Lua script the only way to control the TBS Unify Pro from a transmitter?
   
   
4. I'm seeing that I need to think about jello with respect to the Runcam Split. I'm wondering if that rules out the QAV-X, as it will be pretty tough to soft mount the camera in that one? Or is soft mounting the motors good enough? Anyone trying this combo (QAV-X with Runcam Split)?
   

Thanks again everyone for the help! It's most appreciated.

(12-Sep-2017, 12:37 AM)surfimp Wrote: Yes, a pagoda looks like the best choice (spent some quality time with Joshua Bardwell and others yesterday). Or at least a very good place to start

My research into my components mix has raised some interesting questions:

If I'm using the Matek F405, I believe there are only two UARTs available, and only one can do serial (?)...so, if I'm running a Spektrum quad serial receiver with telemetry, will I still also have the ability to control the OSD if I use a TBS Unify Pro?

Two? After connecting your Spektrum receiver to UART 2, you still have UARTs 1, 3, 4 and 5 available.

Also, see this for setting up telemetry on the SPM4649T receiver.

(12-Sep-2017, 12:37 AM)surfimp Wrote: Will I have to choose between onboard audio and Tx-based OSD control if using a Runcam Split with the TBS Unify Pro?

No. Have a read here, especially right at the end. It is possible to use both a microphone and SmartAudio with the addition of a capacitor and resistor. Once the quad is armed, the data stream to the VTX is turned off and audio from the microphone takes over. If you record the video with a DVR, you can hear the SmartAudio data before you arm but as soon as you're in the air, it's just the wind and motor/prop noise.

(12-Sep-2017, 12:37 AM)surfimp Wrote: Is a Taranis running Lua script the only way to control the Tramp HV from a transmitter?

Didn't you just say "Unify Pro"? No matter, you can control either from the OSD and the OSD can be controlled through the transmitter sticks. A Taranis is not a requirement.

(12-Sep-2017, 12:37 AM)surfimp Wrote: I'm seeing that I need to think about jello with respect to the Runcam Swift. I'm wondering if that rules out the QAV-X, as it will be pretty tough to soft mount the camera in that one? Or is soft mounting the motors good enough? Anyone trying this combo (QAV-X with Runcam Swift)?

I guess you mean Runcam Split?

The only way to find out is to try it! Using good quality motors that have been properly balanced and good quality propellers that are also well balanced will go a long way to reducing vibration. Most action cameras are not soft mounted and they are also CMOS cameras like the Split, so it's all a question of how your particular build performs from a vibration point of view.

I have a Split on the way for the Armattan Japalura that I'm building, so I'll have some personal experience as to how well it works fairly soon.

Sorry for the typos above! Typing then editing too quickly for my own good. Yes, you translated my inaccuracies correctly. Apologies for that. I think I am overdosing on info, in the throes of a research frenzy!

Thank you again, unseen.

No problem!

It's easy to get lost in the maze of choices. The real fun part is to come...

"Stalking the postman".