Maybe one of our American members can help me understand...

I notice that many Americans say things like "It flew good" when gramatically, the correct thing to say would be "It flew well".

Is this acceptable grammar in the USA or would your high school English teacher mark you down for it?

If it is acceptable grammar, where does the justification for it come from?

If I was back in the UK and used the word 'good' where 'well' is required, I know I'd get some very strange looks for it.

From my perspective it's a matter of not wanting to sound too formal. For some reason in the US if English is spoken 100% correct it starts to sound rigid and unfriendly. Another example of this is using "whom" in the object of a sentence. If I am the kind of person that wonders whom stole my cookies then I sound like I am stuck up... but if I am the kind of person that wonders who stole them then I sound as though I am speaking more causally..

Generally for me (with the exception of social media like web forums where I go back and forth) I write differently than I speak.

I don't know if it helps, and some may disagree, but it's my reasoning

You are right, it is absolutely grammatically incorrect. My high school teacher would have probably beat the hell out of me...well ok, not really, but he would have absolutely let me know it was wrong and my marks would have suffered. Sadly, I think it reflects the state of the education system in this country. Do not misunderstand me, there are many many fine school systems here, but increasingly, I see a deficiency in the "three R's".....particularly among our young folks. Additionally, IMO it reflects a lack of parental support at home. I did (and still do) jump on my kids when I hear this kind of crap coming out of their mouths.......they KNOW how to speak proper English, its just that at times (who knows why), they choose not to.

It might be funny at times, but it is also a sad indicator of our society. Ok.......I'm crawling back in my hole now......

(27-Apr-2017, 07:14 PM)sirdude Wrote: You are right, it is absolutely grammatically incorrect. My high school teacher would have probably beat the hell out of me...well ok, not really, but he would have absolutely let me know it was wrong and my marks would have suffered. Sadly, I think it reflects the state of the education system in this country. Do not misunderstand me, there are many many fine school systems here, but increasingly, I see a deficiency in the "three R's".....particularly among our young folks. Additionally, IMO it reflects a lack of parental support at home. I did (and still do) jump on my kids when I hear this kind of crap coming out of their mouths.......they KNOW how to speak proper English, its just that at times (who knows why), they choose not to.

It might be funny at times, but it is also a sad indicator of our society. Ok.......I'm crawling back in my hole now......

Just to clarify and speak to what Carl added.....it is one thing to KNOW proper English and just choose not to use it, but it is something altogether different to NOT know proper English or understand when it is necessary to use it. I agree that there are places and situations that it is not necessary, or even desirable to use correct English. I was primarily talking about who have never learned or bothered to teach correct English and when it is appropriate to use or not use it.

Ok.......now since I ain't got nothin more to speak, I'm gonna get me back in the hole.....

(27-Apr-2017, 07:26 PM)sirdude Wrote: Just to clarify and speak to what Carl added.....it is one thing to KNOW proper English and just choose not to use it, but it is something altogether different to NOT know proper English or understand when it is necessary to use it.  I agree that there are places and situations that it is not necessary, or even desirable to use correct English.  I was primarily talking about who have never learned or bothered to teach correct English and when it is appropriate to use or not use it.

Ok.......now since I ain't got nothin more to speak, I'm gonna get me back in the hole.....

Yeah, it aint like they can't go learn it. Me and my crew ignore the rules like rebels. We be that way just 'cause it's how you gotta talk sometimes. Like, alot of ya'll be talking way too much like your stuck up.

OK, so maybe I don't quite talk like that :p

Truth be told, I think it's the fact that our culture does encourage the use of improper English in order to add a casual sound that some don't learn good habits. If you have the kind of job where you have to produce write-ups for senior vice presidents of projects you've managed, you tend to learn the rules at least a little. So maybe it just takes a good job

Unseen, your examples of "well" and "good" are particularly "troublesome" for Americans. I think most of us know the proper usages of these two words, but our typical colloquial greetings consist of "How are you?" and "How are you doing?", with responses of "Good!" and (only sometimes) "Well!". I rarely say "I'm well" unless someone is inquiring about my health. My response to both greetings mentioned above is usually "I'm good!". I had to relearn a little bit when moving to New York State, because the typical expected answer is "Good - you?"

I guess my attitude is: I suspect most people know correct grammar, but I'm not bothered by casual incorrect usage. (Spelling is a whole 'nother thing though!)

Its honestly sad at times, what passes for acceptable grammar here in the states. Ive always said "Ignorance IS truely bliss"
Its one thing to be "kickin' it wit yo homies" but it really is an embarrassment seeing some of the people our media loves to show and idolize setting examples of "whats cool" for our youth.

Yeah, I tried to avoid going too far down the path of slang. I think that is a whole other thing entirely. It's especially droven by culture so it kind of has its own excuse if you ask me. Whether its "wicked fast" (new England) or "hey ya'll" (south) or "on fleek" (over trendy) or "got beef" (hip hop)... It's all got a special relevance.

Wow! Thanks for the interesting replies gentlemen!

Where to start?

The 'good' instead of 'well' thing was what made me start thinking about this. I see it used frequently by Americans in both the written and spoken word, even from those who otherwise write and speak intelligently and eloquently. I began to think that if so many people all said 'good' despite my internal grammar alarm screaming, then maybe it was acceptable and Mr. Webster had done more to the language than merely murdering the spelling!

It seems I'm not losing my mind then and despite increasing slang use, 'good' is still an adjective and 'well' is still an adverb (unless it means 'healthy'), regardless of which side of the pond you live. Interesting.

The thing about language is how plastic it is. Even documented and accepted standards of grammar can be bent by things falling into current use. The word 'whom' is a perfect example. The great majority of people who have English as their mother tongue who are under 60 years old would never use 'whom' in either written or spoken language. In another 30 years, 'whom' will be consigned to the history books lost in a sea of other words more appropriate to Shakespeare's time than today.

Most Englishmen, if they travelled back in time just 500 years, would have incredible difficulty communicating with their English ancestors in their supposedly common language.

In another 70 years, maybe 'good' will also be a perfectly acceptable substitute for 'well'.

Maybe I should just accept change?

(27-Apr-2017, 07:26 PM)sirdude Wrote: Just to clarify and speak to what Carl added.....it is one thing to KNOW proper English and just choose not to use it, but it is something altogether different to NOT know proper English or understand when it is necessary to use it.  I agree that there are places and situations that it is not necessary, or even desirable to use correct English.  I was primarily talking about who have never learned or bothered to teach correct English and when it is appropriate to use or not use it.

Ok.......now since I ain't got nothin more to speak, I'm gonna get me back in the hole.....

No need to go back in the hole....

I hate to see the language abused for no good reason. Sure, there are the ways many of us shorten sentences and use verbal devices and emoticons to make informal written speech warmer, more expressive and more personal on a forum, but informal expression should never mean that our communication becomes inexact, confusing or contradictory.  (Unless that's the intention of course!)

In the last decade, I've seen the quality of people's contributions in the digital world plummet in standard. Many people use their mobile phones and tablets to access forums. Some seem to think that posts which are comprised of mostly txt spch like 'ty' and 'ur' are perfectly OK. Many use the predictive text input on their phones and tablets and make no effort to read what they have written and correct it before they post. Many don't even notice all the mistakes where word endings get dropped, so you see many sentences where -ly is missing from 'quickly' for example.

I won't use a touch screen for large amounts of text, primarily because I can type way faster than I can use a touch screen, even with predictive text. Whatever you like though, that's good as long as you read what you've written, many times if there's a lot of text, and make sure it's right, BEFORE you hit the 'Post' button.

More importantly though, if I posted a wall of poorly spelled text devoid of capital letters, punctuation, paragraphs and structure, I would be insulting the reader by making my message hard for them to read and understand.

I often see forum members who don't have English as their mother tongue write far better English than those who should know better. That's a shame on us all to be honest.

We should all strive to use our words well!

English is an amazing language really; it is flexible, easy to pronounce, has bucket loads of words, more exceptions than rules and can be as simple, complicated or expressive as you need it to be.

Modern English is a constantly evolving blend of many other languages, dialects and slang. English is a bit like the Borg from Star Trek - English will assimilate your language and add it to ours to improve it. Surrender! Resistance is futile!.

(27-Apr-2017, 10:29 PM)unseen Wrote: Most Englishmen, if they travelled back in time just 500 years, would have incredible difficulty communicating with their English ancestors in their supposedly common language.

In another 70 years, maybe 'good' will also be a perfectly acceptable substitute for 'well'.

That doth ring true

Need I throw in my 2 cents worth? I am Australian...say no more.

(28-Apr-2017, 08:02 AM)BigglesFPV Wrote: Need I throw in my 2 cents worth?  I am Australian...say no more.

And I was just wistfully thinking "I wonder what Biggles would say about all of this?"

(27-Apr-2017, 10:29 PM)unseen Wrote: ...Maybe I should just accept change?

This is part of the trick isn't it. Languages evolve. Just imagine asking someone "double-you tee eff?" in 1992... They'ed be like "What did you say?"... but today we say it not even needing to picture what the letters stand for as the meaning has taken on even more than the acronym has (acronym being a misused word as well... technically an acronym is supposed to form a new word, otherwise it's just initials). 

Who in the object of a sentence is absolutely still incorrect regardless of the fact that almost no one complies. The rule has not been changed but I actually don't remember even learning it in school. I had to look it up online years later. It's still archaic anyway though, to a point that most people don't even know that its a rule and think that who and whom are interchangeable. It's kind of fun to defy the cultural standards and use whom properly anyway though... in a way it's anti-slang?

I tend to use curse words in the same way that I use improper English. I am not a potty-mouth by any stretch, and actually most people are surprised when I curse out of anger because I usually only do it out of casual speech (ex: "What the hell were you up to last night? I heard you were doing something pretty f...ing crazy"). Just like improper English, cursing is considering inappropriate yet has an important place in our lexicon. 

(note, this post self-censored per previous heads up... but do know that I consider you all friends enough that I would curse if it was appropriate :p )

The best completely unintentional abuse of an acronym I've seen came from an American who insisted, in true Webster style, on spelling laser with a z!

He was completely unaware that laser is an acronym that comes from "light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation".