(18-Oct-2019, 01:00 PM)ph2t Wrote: Blow, you've been on this forum for less than two months man - you've made 357 posts.  Dang dude, that's a lot of forum time.

I had a neighbour that would fly his phantom off his back yard porch and would just take off over houses on his way to the local golf course.   To support your logic - yes I would report him - what he is doing is wrong and irresponsible.   I wanted to shoot it out of the sky.

When I fly in public I try to maintain all the CASA (Australian Air Authority) rules, even a spotter if I have a friend, hell I even take a fire extinguisher - just in case - summer months - lipos.

If I'm going to the effort to comply and fly safely then I'm going to be pissed at the bloke who just flys like a dickhead.   Yes I would dob him in.   I don't feel that I'm ruining the hobby, I'm upholding the rules and values that CASA has placed on the hobby.   It's the dickhead with the phantom whom is to blame.

I'm trying to respectfully understand your point - but I'm finding that I fit into your argument as the "other flyer" that is ruining the hobby - I might of misinterpreted your logic but I don't think so.

Sorry to Oscar for the swears.

cheers,

ph2t.

You are absolutely the type of person I assert is ruining this hobby. If you reported your friend then you brought attention to his "dangerous" flying when noone else cared. You then force the authorities who otherwise wouldn't have done anything about it, to do something about it.

If you went and made a video explaining why and asserting that his flying was dangerous, and a regulation was then put in place because of YOUR video and YOUR snitching, then yes it's YOUR fault that regulation got put in place.

It's partly his fault too but it's like 95/5 your fault to his fault.

Don't misunderstand me, the fact that YOUR ratting to the authorities brought regulations upon everyone in the community would be your fault. There is no way around it... if you didn't snitch, the regulation would not have been put in place.....  If HIS drone fell and dented someones car it would result in a small claims court case at the most.... never getting the attention of the people who place regulations on these kinds of things. Even if it DID get to their ears it would probably not induce a response from the FAA or like organization because it only dented ONE car, not dozens, or hundreds...

And exactly what you said is what I said, because that YOU follow the rules and get licenses and do everything by the book makes you upset when you see someone else doing is jealousy and even vindictive (especially when you said you wanted to shoot it down.... which would be more dangerous than him flying in the first place as now there is a drone falling out of the sky, so this shows your motivation is more on the vindictive side and less on the 'caring about safety' side). Your comment actually bolsters everything I've said and even helps show why I can't stand this mentality and think it's full of sh*t... It's an elitist way of thinking.

No matter what.... NO MATTER WHAT people are gonna fly in ways you don't like...... NO MATTER WHAT!!! So if you go reporting these people, then the authorities have to do something about it when they otherwise wouldn't have. If you WANT stringent regulations on our hobby then yes, what you say you'd do is exactly what you should do. Just understand that you can't have it both ways. You can't be this way AND hate regulations, it's a contradiction.

And about my many posts.... I play a browser game so going through these posts is almost the perfect thing to do while waiting for ques/deliveries/attacks etc etc

(18-Oct-2019, 01:28 PM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: Then you won't find yourself getting ripped into by other pilots who are just trying to protect their cherished hobby 

They are not protecting it they're dooming it out of pride, and a sense of superiority. That's exactly my point.

You guys keep claiming you get my point but you keep going against me with comments that don't even come close to contradicting anything I've said. Then those comments get tons of likes it's laughable. I feel like I'm arguing religion against religious people here.

The way you guys are talking it's like you DO want very strict regulations.... Are you such idealists that you think you can stop all "dangerous flyers" by telling the authorities every time you see someone flying dangerously while AVOIDING government regulations being put in place as a result of you running to the authorities? 

If you DON'T mind harsh regulations on the sport, and would actually like to see them implemented to achieve what you're saying then I can't argue against that...... All I can do is hope your wishes don't come true. Then my original post is not for you.

It's sad that people who have read my post and agreed with it will not step forward here out of fear of controversy.... I mean the ONLY reason I have to call it opinion is because I don't know the actual statistics on WHO are actually calling authorities... if it's more average every day people who have nothing to do with RC then I'm WRONG... I'm wrong wrong wrong..... but if it's RC pilots then what I'm saying is an undeniable fact.

To me what I'm saying isn't even controversial it's just plain obvious. I hoped my post would be received with A LOT of support and agreement.... The fact it hasn't bolsters my points even more... unfortunately.

(18-Oct-2019, 04:46 PM)bLoWsMokE Wrote: They are not protecting it they're dooming it out of pride, and a sense of superiority. That's exactly my point.

The only pilots dooming the hobby are the reckless ones. You need to read what I wrote. And I didn't say anywhere that I would report someone. I said that I agreed with the sentiments of ph2t and stated why pilots rip into other pilots when they are being dangerous/reckless. If other pilots don't call out the idiots then they will just keep being idiots and flying recklessly until another member of the public does report them, or until someone ends up getting hurt. The reason other pilots pipe up (without calling the authorities I might add) is to try and bring it to the attention of said idiot before things start to get out of hand, which ultimately results in everyone in the hobby suffering.

We're not talking about not twisting the rules here (which we all do - FPV without a spotter, BVLOS / long range to name a couple), we're talking about flying in a safe and responsible manner even if we are flying outside the rules. We're all ambassadors to the hobby and so we all have a responsibility to make sure we do that, be it flying safely and calling out pilots who don't.

Thankfully there only seems to be a small number of idiotic pilots, but when some of those idiots post in public what they did then they are advertising it to the world which the media then jumps on in glee for a good story and the result is that it then further blackens the image of the already under-fire hobby.

And don't be naive enough to think that some of the authorities don't monitor YouTube activity. There have already been some verified cases where the FCC have gone knocking on someone's door after having discovered a reckless YouTube video that was posted in public.

Probably no-one else agrees with your original post and that is likely why no-one has stepped forward in support of what you wrote in it.

(18-Oct-2019, 04:46 PM)bLoWsMokE Wrote: You guys keep claiming you get my point but you keep going against me with comments that don't even come close to contradicting anything I've said. Then those comments get tons of likes it's laughable. I feel like I'm arguing religion against religious people here.

The way you guys are talking it's like you DO want very strict regulations.... Are you such idealists that you think you can stop all "dangerous flyers" by telling the authorities every time you see someone flying dangerously while AVOIDING government regulations being put in place as a result of you running to the authorities? 

If you DON'T mind harsh regulations on the sport, and would actually like to see them implemented to achieve what you're saying then I can't argue against that...... All I can do is hope your wishes don't come true. Then my original post is not for you.

It's sad that people who have read my post and agreed with it will not step forward here out of fear of controversy.... I mean the ONLY reason I have to call it opinion is because I don't know the actual statistics on WHO are actually calling authorities... if it's more average every day people who have nothing to do with RC then I'm WRONG... I'm wrong wrong wrong..... but if it's RC pilots then what I'm saying is an undeniable fact.

To me what I'm saying isn't even controversial it's just plain obvious. I hoped my post would be received with A LOT of support and agreement.... The fact it hasn't bolsters my points even more... unfortunately.

(19-Oct-2019, 03:09 PM)SnowLeopardFPV Wrote: The only pilots dooming the hobby are the reckless ones. You need to read what I wrote. And I didn't say anywhere that I would report someone. I said that I agreed with the sentiments of ph2t and stated why pilots rip into other pilots when they are being dangerous/reckless. If other pilots don't call out the idiots then they will just keep being idiots and flying recklessly until another member of the public does report them, or until someone ends up getting hurt. The reason other pilots pipe up (without calling the authorities I might add) is to try and bring it to the attention of said idiot before things start to get out of hand, which ultimately results in everyone in the hobby suffering.

We're not talking about not twisting the rules here (which we all do - FPV without a spotter, BVLOS / long range to name a couple), we're talking about flying in a safe and responsible manner even if we are flying outside the rules. We're all ambassadors to the hobby and so we all have a responsibility to make sure we do that, be it flying safely and calling out pilots who don't.

Thankfully there only seems to be a small number of idiotic pilots, but when some of those idiots post in public what they did then they are advertising it to the world which the media then jumps on in glee for a good story and the result is that it then further blackens the image of the already under-fire hobby.

And don't be naive enough to think that some of the authorities don't monitor YouTube activity. There have already been some verified cases where the FCC have gone knocking on someone's door after having discovered a reckless YouTube video that was posted in public.

Probably no-one else agrees with your original post and that is likely why no-one has stepped forward in support of what you wrote in it.

I'm not talking about RC pilots who rip into reckless pilots for flying recklessly.  And there have been cases where the FAA have knocked on doors after a posted video, but it's not because the FAA is paying someone to sit around looking for dangerous pilots on youtube... it's because another pilot who saw that video called the FAA forcing them to look into it..... THAT is who I'm talking about.

If a reckless pilot flies recklessly all his life and it never results in damage or injury, then it would remain just that.... a non issue. It's when another pilot calls the authorites on that person is when it becomes an issue.

You say that no one has spoke up because no one agrees with me, but all I've gotten in the way of disagreement is just plain disagreement. I'm still waiting for someone to explain HOW they disagree with me, WHY they disagree with, and to tell me what is wrong with my logic. All I've gotten so far is the equivalent of a "NUH UH" or just plain misunderstanding of what I'm saying. 

In the end I think YOU actually agree with me in the end as you seem to be against people going to the authorities in favor of other pilots admonishing that pilot without ever bringing it to the attention of the authorities.

I think you personally are stuck on thinking that I'm talking against people who yelled at me for my video.... I'm really not... sure I'm against that mind set in general because the probability of someone who yells at another pilot for "reckless flying" would be the type of person who would call the authorities, but if they aren't then there is nothing wrong with a stern "ur flying like an idiot don't post that".

In fact I'd proly be for it if the mind set was specifically to keep videos like that from showing up on a rats youtube feed and not from a mind set of elitism or authoritarianism. I believe the ladder is more common.... you may be an exception, and it seems you proly are based on the way you speak.....

It's also possible that I'm just not being understood by most people, nuance is hard for A LOT of people to wrap their heads around.  i say this in an "as a matter of fact" way not a condescending way at all. Though I'm not against saying it condescendingly about people in general, it's just not how I mean it here. <more nuance... where is the head explosion emoji   

Blow you’re stating that the protagonist of the act is not guilty of brining the hobby into disrepute but the reporter of the act is guilty. You have written this several times in this thread. That is a seriously flawed argument mate.

Kind regards,

ph2t.

(18-Oct-2019, 04:31 PM)bLoWsMokE Wrote: There is no way around it... if you didn't snitch, the regulation would not have been put in place.....  If HIS drone fell and dented someones car it would result in a small claims court case at the most.... never getting the attention of the people who place regulations on these kinds of things. Even if it DID get to their ears it would probably not induce a response from the FAA or like organization because it only dented ONE car, not dozens, or hundreds...

Blow,

Do you really think that the regulation agencies are so inept, so uncapable of conducting audits, that it is not their sole purpose of being to ensure that drone flying is done with the minimal amount of harm to the public (or their property see dented car) that they would never find out if someone was breaking the standard rules unless if a disgruntled pilot reported them first? They are even trialling a drone cannon/gun that shoots drones out of the sky in an attempt to reduce plane-drone collisions at airports. As more dangerous behaviours go un-opposed, the more the regulator will beef up the drone regulation, tracking and restrictions and come up with new ways on reducing the risk of harm or injury as the public expects them to.

They do not rely solely on the dobbing in of idiot pilots who think they are above the rules and will not get caught. Just because you may not get caught, doesn't make it legal or even ethical to fly your drone however you want without any regard for the safety of strangers. Have you ever imagined if you fly over a highway, failsafe and your drone crashes through the windshield of a truck which goes on to crash head-on with a family car? Not so out of the realm of possibilities. In your mind, who would be in the wrong in this hypothetical? The pilot saying you should fly safely and dobs you in for breaking the rules?

To another point of contention I have is your holding to the idea that the result of drone-people collision results in merely dented cars and small claims courts. One only has to read and look at the horror stories of people being sliced up by propellers. It astounds me how many people do not realise that drones can be highly dangerous if not used responsibly. I actually didn't hear about this until quite recently but, an RC helicopter pilot in the USA died when he lost control of the model helicopter he was flying <1 meter from his face as it partially decapitated him. There is a reason why the rules say you must remain 30 meters from people at all times, it is for peoples safety, not just to be an annoyance to cavalier pilots.

You are right when you say that it infuriates pilots like me who do their best to comply with the rules and fly in a safe manner, to then have a carefree pilot simply flaunt the rules and regs because they likely won't get caught. Not only is that irresponsible and reckless but in my mind those types of people need a reality check. It may be in the form of property damage resulting in small claims as you say (and additional damage to the image of the hobby), it might be in the form of a legal suit due to bodily damage or it may be in the form of a fine by the authorities. I'd much rather it be a simple fine than the other options.

Fly in the open desert and i'd agree with you that the authorities would likely never find out or be any the wiser, let alone care if they did find out becasue the risk of harm is negligible, but let's be real. Most pilots fly near semi-civilisation and as such, need to fly in accordance with the standard rules.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that they have to correct their behaviour instead of trying to blame the world for their own shortcomings.

Regards,
Scopio

Blow I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here, if you're trying to justify your own wrongdoings (breaking the law) this is probably not the place to be. This is what normally seperates IntoFPV from far more toxic places like RCGroups and Facebook.

Blow must be typing a really long response - he's already been on 15 minutes....

(22-Oct-2019, 01:25 AM)sloscotty Wrote: Blow must be typing a really long response - he's already been on 15 minutes....

(21-Oct-2019, 07:17 AM)ph2t Wrote: Blow you’re stating that the protagonist of the act is not guilty of brining the hobby into disrepute but the reporter of the act is guilty.  You have written this several times in this thread. That is a seriously flawed argument mate.

Kind regards,

ph2t.

FINALLY i been waiting for someone to say this most obvious of statements.... And yes... This is EXACTLY what I'm doing!!! It IS a little backward but that does not mean it's not true....

Let me ask you a question.... Hypothetically, if every RC pilot in the world NEVER EVER brought these reckless flyers to the attention of the FAA (and other like organizations) from the beginning of this hobby.... do you think that this 'crackdown' on the hobby would be happening? I'm saying it would not. No one cares besides OTHER RC pilots.

The person flying recklessly is at fault for flying recklessly..... but the point is that NO ONE CARES until another RC pilot forces people to care. There are ALWAYS gonna be people doing reckless things. The only way to really prevent this is to force the regulators to regulate so stringently that it makes it almost impossible for these reckless pilots to even own a craft.

If you think that being a reckless pilot is SO dangerous that you ABSOLUTELY want something to be done about it, then I have to assume you agree with all the regulations....

For me, I don't really care if people fly recklessly, it's not much more dangerous than playing baseball in a small park IMO.... So to have regulations and rules while being forced to get a license because of pilots I don't even care about (and noone cares about) is unacceptable to me. The only people who seem to care are other RC pilots, and I don't believe it has anything to do with them "caring about the safety of other people and their property"... it's born out of a feeling of superiority.... I'M qualified to fly this aircraft, I'M special and in the minority of people with the proper skills and training to be able to pilot these crafts that others who are not qualified should not be able to fly.

I think RC pilots who have all their licenses and went through all the weeds to get completely legal are against 'reckless pilots' due to arrogance, and not due to concern for others and their property.

Let's take 3D helicopters for instance...... INDEED Those are dangerous enough that I wouldn't want anyone flying recklessly AT ALL.

^^^^ This is the debate this thread should have evolved into from the very beginning. This was the whole idea of this post.

(22-Oct-2019, 01:48 AM)bLoWsMokE Wrote: FINALLY i been waiting for someone to say this most obvious of statements.... And yes... This is EXACTLY what I'm doing!!! It IS a little backward but that does not mean it's not true....

Let me ask you a question.... Hypothetically, if every RC pilot in the world NEVER EVER brought these reckless flyers to the attention of the FAA (and other like organizations) from the beginning of this hobby.... do you think that this 'crackdown' on the hobby would be happening? I'm saying it would not. No one cares besides OTHER RC pilots.

The person flying recklessly is at fault for flying recklessly..... but the point is that NO ONE CARES until another RC pilot forces people to care. There are ALWAYS gonna be people doing reckless things. The only way to really prevent this is to force the regulators to regulate so stringently that it makes it almost impossible for these reckless pilots to even own a craft.

If you think that being a reckless pilot is SO dangerous that you ABSOLUTELY want something to be done about it, then I have to assume you agree with all the regulations....

For me, I don't really care if people fly recklessly, it's not much more dangerous than playing baseball in a small park IMO.... So to have regulations and rules while being forced to get a license because of pilots I don't even care about (and noone cares about) is unacceptable to me. The only people who seem to care are other RC pilots, and I don't believe it has anything to do with them "caring about the safety of other people and their property"... it's born out of a feeling of superiority.... I'M qualified to fly this aircraft, I'M special and in the minority of people with the proper skills and training to be able to pilot these crafts that others who are not qualified should not be able to fly.

I think RC pilots who have all their licenses and went through all the weeds to get completely legal are against 'reckless pilots' due to arrogance, and not due to concern for others and their property.

Let's take 3D helicopters for instance...... INDEED Those are dangerous enough that I wouldn't want anyone flying recklessly AT ALL.

^^^^ This is the debate this thread should have evolved into from the very beginning. This was the whole idea of this post.

Wouldn't you say a crackdown on reckless flyers would be completely justified because they are flying recklessly?

Put yourself in the shoes of someone that works at any aviation authority, it is your due diligence to make sure you put things in place to lower the risk of incidents. This is where the rules really stem from, and yes I agree not all of the rules they put in place are reasonable.

You say 3D helicopters are far more dangerous, have you seen what happens if someone gets hit by a 5"? It's not pretty, that's for sure and is where most of the "Sub 250G" regulations stem from, and this is before you bring in FPV which disables you from being aware of your surroundings and is why I generally will not fly FPV without a spotter incase someone walks by unless i'm in the middle of nowhere.

Coming back to your point, if someone flys recklessly (especially if they share it online) it is 100% their fault and nothing to do with the people that report them, you need to irradicate the root cause, not bandaid it. If someone has a licence and sees someone else breaking the law and they are aware of it technically they have to report or they are jeopardizing their licence, although this would be very hard for an authority to prove.

You are right in saying your approach is backward, and it doesnt really matter if its true or not, it's backward lol.

(21-Oct-2019, 11:34 PM)bffigjam Wrote: Blow I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here, if you're trying to justify your own wrongdoings (breaking the law) this is probably not the place to be. This is what normally seperates IntoFPV from far more toxic places like RCGroups and Facebook.

Not at all.... What I'm trying to accomplish is showing people a different perspective.

When I see RC pilots who are terrified of the regulations that might be put in place upon our hobby yet go and report RC pilots to the regulators I just...... I mean..... Think about it!!! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot..... And I don't think these people even realize the big bloody hole leaking all over the floor.

If you don't want regulations to weigh down the hobby, then stop telling the regulators to regulate...

To me this is SOO blatantly obvious it blows my mind that no one seems to get it. It's so self defeating.... 

I have been thinking about this though, and I realized I'm kind of contradicting myself.... If I believe it's impossible to get reckless pilots to not fly recklessly by just telling them not to do it, then how can I think I can get RC pilots to stop ratting on their own community instead of sticking up for them.

I think the difference is this... If a normal non RC pilot said to a pilot "What you're doing is dangerous" my first instinct, being an RC pilot myself, would be to DEFEND that pilot. But this is not what I see from this community, it's the opposite. I've never experienced anything like this before. This is the first hobby I've taken up where this is the case.

In the end I don't think flying recklessly is dangerous enough to warrant stringent regulation. 

I bring up the rotor riot incident all the time because it's perfect. Tommy flew near that bridge, nothing went wrong...... but there was a HUGE uproar from..... who else? The RC community! So it turned into a big enough thing that law makers HAD to take notice. To me Tommy did nothing wrong in that video, however, if I were a regulator and I saw other RC pilots saying it's SO dangerous and OMG, then I'd have to listen to them because they ARE after all RC pilots....

(22-Oct-2019, 01:58 AM)bffigjam Wrote: Wouldn't you say a crackdown on reckless flyers would be completely justified because they are flying recklessly?

Put yourself in the shoes of someone that works at any aviation authority, it is your due diligence to make sure you put things in place to lower the risk of incidents. This is where the rules really stem from, and yes I agree not all of the rules they put in place are reasonable.

You say 3D helicopters are far more dangerous, have you seen what happens if someone gets hit by a 5"? It's not pretty, that's for sure and is where most of the "Sub 250G" regulations stem from, and this is before you bring in FPV which disables you from being aware of your surroundings and is why I generally will not fly FPV without a spotter incase someone walks by unless i'm in the middle of nowhere.

Coming back to your point, if someone flys recklessly (especially if they share it online) it is 100% their fault and nothing to do with the people that report them, you need to irradicate the root cause, not bandaid it. If someone has a licence and sees someone else breaking the law and they are aware of it technically they have to report or they are jeopardizing their licence, although this would be very hard for an authority to prove.

You are right in saying your approach is backward, and it doesnt really matter if its true or not, it's backward lol.

Ok, that's fine, my argument is for people who do NOT want regulations to be brought down upon the RC community..... The only thing I can say to you is that i don't agree that this hobby should have the regulation hammer brought down on us.... I do not want our hobby regulated to the dirt. This thread isn't intended for guys like you.

THAT is just a difference of opinion there. My issue is not the people who agree with having this hobby regulated (although I disagree with you that it should, but that's a different debate) my issue is with those who DO NOT want regulations to choke our hobby, yet run to the regulators the first chance they get, then blame the people they ratted on for causing the regulations to tighten.... it's hypocritical, non-sensical.

(22-Oct-2019, 02:18 AM)bLoWsMokE Wrote: Ok, that's fine, my argument is for people who do NOT want regulations to be brought down upon the RC community..... The only thing I can say to you is that i don't agree that this hobby should have the regulation hammer brought down on us.... I do not want our hobby regulated to the dirt. This thread isn't intended for guys like you.

THAT is just a difference of opinion there. My issue is not the people who agree with having this hobby regulated (although I disagree with you that it should, but that's a different debate) my issue is with those who DO NOT want regulations to choke our hobby, yet run to the regulators the first chance they get, then blame the people they ratted on for causing the regulations to tighten.... it's hypocritical.

I agree that those particular people are hypocritical and shouldn't be doing that. Again not sure what you intend to gain from having a discussion about that, not much can be done about hypocrites, they are everywhere.

(22-Oct-2019, 02:24 AM)bffigjam Wrote: I agree that those particular people are hypocritical and shouldn't be doing that. Again not sure what you intend to gain from having a discussion about that, not much can be done about hypocrites, they are everywhere.

No in the end ur right..... i was thinkign about this.... if I think it's such a ridiculously idealistic notion to stop reckless pilots from flying recklessly WITHOUT regulation, then how can I also be so idealistic to think I can make people stop going to the authorities in this hypocritical way.

I guess then that the point is to make those people aware that they're being hypocrites.... I honestly don't think they realize it. But yeah.... it's all futile I guess lol. What will happen will happen no matter what..... Reckless pilots will continue to be reckless pilots, and  tattle tails will continue to be tattle tails, and whatever regulations will be put in place, will be put in place.... no matter what.

Thanks for being one of the first people to actually engage in the topic at hand though. My opinions are often divisive/nuanced. People tend to shut down when the opinion isn't straight forward or black and white.