Hi Everyone,

=Background=

I have re-tuned on Betaflight 2.8.0 recently (not that I think that has anything to do with it) and switched to DAL 5045x3 Tri-blade props.

I am running:
210 frame
Sunnysky 2204x 2300kv
Littlebee 20A
Naze32 Rev6
Turnigy Graphene 1300mAh 4S 65C Lipo 

=The Problem=
I was flying lower PID gains on the Tri blades and all seemed pretty cool. Then I spent the last few days tuning. After tuning it up, it's flying amazing and very locked in, however the Sunnysky motors are coming down very hot.

I think it's just that they are rated 2S-3S and i'm obviously running 4S.

Flight time is very short as well (2-3.5 mins).

=Questions=
1) Could my P gains which I reckon are high (still no real P oscillations though) be causing the motors to heat up? Could I tune the heat down by reducing P?
2) Do I have to fall back to regular dual blade props?
3) Does anyone else run tri-blades with 4S on Sunnyskys without issues?
4) Do I need better motors?

Thanks in advance. I can post my Betaflight dump later on tonight.

Thanks in advance.

Sean

Common problem with motors overheating is too high D. From what I've read 2.8.0 needs a lot lower D (someone suggested even lower than 10). Maybe that's the cause?

I have pretty much the same setup, and my motors are cool when landing. Flight time is about 3-4 min. Running 2.8.0 and blheli 14.6

Thanks for the insights. 

When you say too high D. I was raising P until I just started to get osc, then I started adding D to see if I could leave P high and soften out those big gyro moves with D.

Maybe this will help more. Here is my CLI dump and PIDs.



# dump all

# version
# BetaFlight/NAZE 2.8.0 Jun 5 2016 / 00:30:38 (d9e28cd)
# dump master

# mixer
mixer QUADX
mmix reset
smix reset


# feature
feature -RX_PPM
feature -VBAT
feature -INFLIGHT_ACC_CAL
feature -RX_SERIAL
feature -MOTOR_STOP
feature -SERVO_TILT
feature -SOFTSERIAL
feature -GPS
feature -FAILSAFE
feature -SONAR
feature -TELEMETRY
feature -CURRENT_METER
feature -3D
feature -RX_PARALLEL_PWM
feature -RX_MSP
feature -RSSI_ADC
feature -LED_STRIP
feature -DISPLAY
feature -ONESHOT125
feature -BLACKBOX
feature -CHANNEL_FORWARDING
feature -TRANSPONDER
feature -AIRMODE
feature -SUPEREXPO_RATES
feature VBAT
feature RX_SERIAL
feature MOTOR_STOP
feature SOFTSERIAL
feature FAILSAFE
feature TELEMETRY
feature ONESHOT125
feature SUPEREXPO_RATES


# beeper
beeper -GYRO_CALIBRATED
beeper -RX_LOST
beeper -RX_LOST_LANDING
beeper DISARMING
beeper ARMING
beeper -ARMING_GPS_FIX
beeper -BAT_CRIT_LOW
beeper -BAT_LOW
beeper -GPS_STATUS
beeper RX_SET
beeper -ACC_CALIBRATION
beeper -ACC_CALIBRATION_FAIL
beeper -READY_BEEP
beeper -MULTI_BEEPS
beeper -DISARM_REPEAT
beeper -ARMED
beeper -SYSTEM_INIT
beeper -ON_USB


# map
map AETR1234


# serial
serial 0 1 115200 57600 0 115200
serial 1 64 115200 57600 0 115200
serial 30 32 115200 57600 0 115200
serial 31 0 115200 57600 0 115200


# led
led 0 15,15:ES:IA:0
led 1 15,8:E:WF:0
led 2 15,7:E:WF:0
led 3 15,0:NE:IA:0
led 4 8,0:N:F:0
led 5 7,0:N:F:0
led 6 0,0:NW:IA:0
led 7 0,7:W:WF:0
led 8 0,8:W:WF:0
led 9 0,15:SW:IA:0
led 10 7,15:S:WF:0
led 11 8,15:S:WF:0
led 12 7,7:U:WF:0
led 13 8,7:U:WF:0
led 14 7,8:WF:0
led 15 8,8:WF:0
led 16 8,9::R:3
led 17 9,10::R:3
led 18 10,11::R:3
led 19 10,12::R:3
led 20 9,13::R:3
led 21 8,14::R:3
led 22 7,14::R:3
led 23 6,13::R:3
led 24 5,12::R:3
led 25 5,11::R:3
led 26 6,10::R:3
led 27 7,9::R:3
led 28 0,0:::0
led 29 0,0:::0
led 30 0,0:::0
led 31 0,0:::0


# color
color 0 0,0,0
color 1 0,255,255
color 2 0,0,255
color 3 30,0,255
color 4 60,0,255
color 5 90,0,255
color 6 120,0,255
color 7 150,0,255
color 8 180,0,255
color 9 210,0,255
color 10 240,0,255
color 11 270,0,255
color 12 300,0,255
color 13 330,0,255
color 14 0,0,0
color 15 0,0,0

# aux
aux 0 0 1 1700 2100
aux 1 27 0 1700 2100
aux 2 12 3 1700 2100
aux 3 0 0 900 900
aux 4 0 0 900 900
aux 5 0 0 900 900
aux 6 0 0 900 900
aux 7 0 0 900 900
aux 8 0 0 900 900
aux 9 0 0 900 900
aux 10 0 0 900 900
aux 11 0 0 900 900
aux 12 0 0 900 900
aux 13 0 0 900 900
aux 14 0 0 900 900
aux 15 0 0 900 900
aux 16 0 0 900 900
aux 17 0 0 900 900
aux 18 0 0 900 900
aux 19 0 0 900 900

# adjrange
adjrange 0 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 1 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 2 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 3 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 4 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 5 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 6 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 7 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 8 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 9 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 10 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 11 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 12 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 13 0 0 900 900 0 0
adjrange 14 0 0 900 900 0 0

# rxrange
rxrange 0 1000 2000
rxrange 1 1000 2000
rxrange 2 1000 2000
rxrange 3 1000 2000

# servo
servo 0 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 1 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 2 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 3 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 4 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 5 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 6 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1
servo 7 1000 2000 1500 90 90 100 -1

set mid_rc = 1500
set min_check = 1100
set max_check = 1900
set rssi_channel = 7
set rssi_scale = 30
set rssi_ppm_invert = OFF
set input_filtering_mode = OFF
set rc_smoothing = OFF
set roll_yaw_cam_mix_degrees = 0
set max_aux_channels = 6
set debug_mode = NONE
set min_throttle = 1025
set max_throttle = 2000
set min_command = 1000
set anti_desync_power_step = 10000
set servo_center_pulse = 1500
set 3d_deadband_low = 1406
set 3d_deadband_high = 1514
set 3d_neutral = 1460
set 3d_deadband_throttle = 50
set unsynced_fast_pwm = OFF
set fast_pwm_protocol = ONESHOT125
set motor_pwm_rate = 400
set servo_pwm_rate = 50
set disarm_kill_switch = ON
set gyro_cal_on_first_arm = OFF
set auto_disarm_delay = 5
set small_angle = 25
set fixedwing_althold_dir = 1
set reboot_character = 82
set serialrx_provider = SBUS
set sbus_inversion = ON
set spektrum_sat_bind = 0
set spektrum_sat_bind_autoreset = 1
set telemetry_switch = OFF
set telemetry_inversion = ON
set frsky_default_lattitude = 0.000
set frsky_default_longitude = 0.000
set frsky_coordinates_format = 0
set frsky_unit = IMPERIAL
set frsky_vfas_precision = 0
set frsky_vfas_cell_voltage = OFF
set hott_alarm_sound_interval = 5
set battery_capacity = 0
set vbat_scale = 110
set vbat_max_cell_voltage = 43
set vbat_min_cell_voltage = 33
set vbat_warning_cell_voltage = 35
set vbat_hysteresis = 1
set vbat_pid_compensation = OFF
set current_meter_scale = 400
set current_meter_offset = 0
set multiwii_current_meter_output = OFF
set current_meter_type = ADC
set align_gyro = DEFAULT
set align_acc = DEFAULT
set align_mag = DEFAULT
set align_board_roll = 0
set align_board_pitch = 0
set align_board_yaw = 0
set max_angle_inclination = 700
set gyro_lpf = OFF
set gyro_sync_denom = 4
set gyro_lowpass = 100
set moron_threshold = 32
set imu_dcm_kp = 2500
set imu_dcm_ki = 0
set alt_hold_deadband = 40
set alt_hold_fast_change = ON
set deadband = 0
set yaw_deadband = 0
set throttle_correction_value = 0
set throttle_correction_angle = 800
set yaw_control_direction = 1
set yaw_motor_direction = 1
set tri_unarmed_servo = ON
set servo_lowpass_freq = 400
set servo_lowpass_enable = OFF
set airmode_activate_throttle = 1350
set failsafe_delay = 10
set failsafe_off_delay = 10
set failsafe_throttle = 1000
set failsafe_kill_switch = OFF
set failsafe_throttle_low_delay = 100
set failsafe_procedure = ON
set rx_min_usec = 885
set rx_max_usec = 2115
set gimbal_mode = NORMAL
set acc_hardware = NONE
set acc_lpf_hz = 10.000
set accxy_deadband = 40
set accz_deadband = 40
set acc_unarmedcal = ON
set acc_trim_pitch = 0
set acc_trim_roll = 0
set baro_tab_size = 21
set baro_noise_lpf = 0.600
set baro_cf_vel = 0.985
set baro_cf_alt = 0.965
set baro_hardware = NONE
set mag_hardware = NONE
set mag_declination = 0
set pid_process_denom = 1
set blackbox_rate_num = 0
set blackbox_rate_denom = 0
set blackbox_device = SERIAL
set magzero_x = 0
set magzero_y = 0
set magzero_z = 0
set ledstrip_visual_beeper = OFF

# rxfail
rxfail 0 a
rxfail 1 a
rxfail 2 a
rxfail 3 a
rxfail 4 h
rxfail 5 h
rxfail 6 h
rxfail 7 h
rxfail 8 h
rxfail 9 h
rxfail 10 h
rxfail 11 h
rxfail 12 h
rxfail 13 h
rxfail 14 h
rxfail 15 h
rxfail 16 h
rxfail 17 h

# profile
profile 0
############################# PROFILE VALUES ####################################

set yaw_p_limit = 500
set dterm_lowpass = 110
set dynamic_pid = ON
set iterm_ignore_threshold = 200
set yaw_iterm_ignore_threshold = 45
set yaw_lowpass = 80
set pid_controller = MWREWRITE
set p_pitch = 89
set i_pitch = 59
set d_pitch = 31
set p_roll = 72
set i_roll = 52
set d_roll = 28
set p_yaw = 117
set i_yaw = 54
set d_yaw = 10
set p_alt = 50
set i_alt = 0
set d_alt = 0
set p_level = 50
set i_level = 50
set d_level = 100
set p_vel = 55
set i_vel = 55
set d_vel = 75
rateprofile 2

# rateprofile
rateprofile 0

set rc_rate = 140
set rc_rate_yaw = 160
set rc_expo = 5
set rc_yaw_expo = 0
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 60
set roll_rate = 60
set pitch_rate = 60
set yaw_rate = 30
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# rateprofile
rateprofile 1

set rc_rate = 100
set rc_rate_yaw = 100
set rc_expo = 10
set rc_yaw_expo = 10
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 0
set roll_rate = 70
set pitch_rate = 70
set yaw_rate = 70
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# rateprofile
rateprofile 2

set rc_rate = 100
set rc_rate_yaw = 100
set rc_expo = 10
set rc_yaw_expo = 10
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 0
set roll_rate = 70
set pitch_rate = 70
set yaw_rate = 70
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# profile
profile 1
############################# PROFILE VALUES ####################################

set yaw_p_limit = 500
set dterm_lowpass = 110
set dynamic_pid = ON
set iterm_ignore_threshold = 200
set yaw_iterm_ignore_threshold = 45
set yaw_lowpass = 80
set pid_controller = MWREWRITE
set p_pitch = 45
set i_pitch = 40
set d_pitch = 15
set p_roll = 45
set i_roll = 40
set d_roll = 15
set p_yaw = 90
set i_yaw = 45
set d_yaw = 20
set p_alt = 50
set i_alt = 0
set d_alt = 0
set p_level = 50
set i_level = 50
set d_level = 100
set p_vel = 55
set i_vel = 55
set d_vel = 75
rateprofile 2

# rateprofile
rateprofile 0

set rc_rate = 100
set rc_rate_yaw = 100
set rc_expo = 70
set rc_yaw_expo = 20
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 0
set roll_rate = 50
set pitch_rate = 50
set yaw_rate = 50
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# rateprofile
rateprofile 1

set rc_rate = 100
set rc_rate_yaw = 100
set rc_expo = 10
set rc_yaw_expo = 10
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 0
set roll_rate = 70
set pitch_rate = 70
set yaw_rate = 70
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# rateprofile
rateprofile 2

set rc_rate = 100
set rc_rate_yaw = 100
set rc_expo = 10
set rc_yaw_expo = 10
set thr_mid = 50
set thr_expo = 0
set roll_rate = 70
set pitch_rate = 70
set yaw_rate = 70
set tpa_rate = 20
set tpa_breakpoint = 1650

# restore original profile / rateprofile selection
profile 0

rateprofile 2

# save configuration
save

#

In general Your PID's look high to me. Read short note from betaflight wiki: https://github.com/betaflight/betaflight...hat-normal-

Don't know Your method of tuning, but it may be a good idea to read trough this: https://github.com/betaflight/betaflight...ning-Guide

Hi Konrad,

Thanks for talking through this with me. I have previously read those many times over (not saying I know it all though).

I started this re-tune from stock 2.8.0 PIDs and then dropped D and P and started from there.

Get I a little higher, then started increasing P on roll. I personally reckon maybe my P was a little high now, as I have HD footage since that last tune and I am getting the slightest P gain osc at full throttle and due to TPA being 20%, would likely point to my P gains being slightly too high.

I'll back them down a tad and give it another fly tomorrow.

But in theory, do you think the Sunnysky motors should be fine on those tri-blade 5045 props?

I used 5045x3 BN DALs on cobra 2204 2300kv which is also 3s rated and I had to drop D a bit on betaflight 2.6.1 because they came down very hot. D was closer to 17 before the drop. People report having to drop D even more on 2.8.0.

EDIT: I had some horrible wobble and dropped I and D by a lot - like 10/5, having P close to 60. The wobble didn't disappear (bashed up DAL props... DOH!) so I changed to a lot lighter prop (KK 5040 which are smooth enough) and the copter flew quite well considering too low gains. Obviously I need to retune again, but it looks like low I and, especially D, are the way to go now. It was visible/aubible even during flights with wobbly props...

So 2.8.0 basically forces D down. Then how do I deal with the prop wash? 

My P gains don't "need" to be as high as they are. So I'll start to decrease them and see if it helps me bring down D too.

Hopefully it helps me keep the tri-blades on.

(10-Jun-2016, 01:18 PM)ganked Wrote: So 2.8.0 basically forces D down. Then how do I deal with the prop wash? 

My P gains don't "need" to be as high as they are. So I'll start to decrease them and see if it helps me bring down D too.

Hopefully it helps me keep the tri-blades on.

That forcing may be connected to the fact that most people are flying 2khz+ looptimes. Imagine how oscillations impact Your motors when it's even faster? Some targets achieve 32khz on raceflights - You don't even hear that Your quad is oscillating at those frequencies

Is it a good idea to reduce loop time to 1k to tune? Is tuning in 2k bad practice? Will I be missing the oscillations that would generally be more audible on 1k?

Thanks in advance.

If You want to fly on 2khz, tune on it. On next retune I'll start on defalut P and low I and D. But currently I'm just learning how to do it properly

Last step of tuning will be trough blackbox anyway.