Hey guys,

So I was poking around at youtube and tripped on this monster long video (2 hrs). They had an interesting video where they discussed the impact of cloning on the hobby. Personally I am opposed to intellectual property theft and I have been shifting away from buying anything that is cloned. I actually went so far as to buy a second FC for my last build because I discovered about myairbot (thanks to Unseen for steering people that direction) and realized I was buying omnibus clones. 

I have also been flying Martian III frames. Of course the original Martian is known for being a clone of the Alien. I don't believe that the Martian III is based on any of the ImpulseRC frames so if it's a clone of something I don't know... However it seems that the Martian III itself is cloned or something because there is the Realacc version and the Readytosky version. And owning both I can say that they aren't 1 for 1 identical. So one or both of those might be clones?



The argument for clones is that it keeps stuff inexpensive for those entering the hobby. I think that's a good point, and my first quad has a couple of cloned parts in it and was cheaper to build because of it. However I really want to support the people in our hobby who are innovating and making great things happen so I'd prefer not to buy clones myself. Do I think it's killing our hobby? No way... This hobby has got it's grips and wont die out because some dishonest people are profiting on the ideas of others. Does it probably mean there are a few great products that'll never get out there? Almost certainly, but that's the price we pay I guess.

What are your thoughts?

I also prefer to buy "original" property when I know, but I just don't take time (or have much interest in taking the time) to do the research.  My main criterium for shopping is the responsiveness and customer service of a vendor.  My second criterium is price.  I do look at product reviews, but mainly to see if customers are having problems with a particular item (clone or otherwise).

My vote on the question is that cloning will not kill the hobby.

PS. I'm probably not going to watch a 2-hour video of Joshua sitting on a Xerox machine.... 

OMG that pic of JB is wrong on so many levels and burned into my brain forever. Arghhhh

(04-Sep-2017, 12:02 PM)sloscotty Wrote: I also prefer to buy "original" property when I know, but I just don't take time (or have much interest in taking the time) to do the research.  My main criterium for shopping is the responsiveness and customer service of a vendor.  My second criterium is price.  I do look at product reviews, but mainly to see if customers are having problems with a particular item (clone or otherwise).

My vote on the question is that cloning will not kill the hobby.

PS. I'm probably not going to watch a 2-hour video of Joshua sitting on a Xerox machine.... 

good point ... I'd openly buy runcam swift 2 clones !

as for sitting on the Xerox machine... I listened to about 30 min of it like it was a podcast or something and got the gist of what they had to say. The important stuff is already covered in my OP really. None of the opinions were really new or revolutionary other than the group also pointing out that when someone is new to the hobby they often don't know the difference between the legit product and the clone (much like I didn't 4 or 5 months ago when I was putting my first build together). 

(04-Sep-2017, 12:52 PM)RENOV8R Wrote: OMG that pic of JB is wrong on so many levels and burned into my brain forever. Arghhhh

you mean your first reaction wasn't "hubba hubba"? 

I think realistically, pretty much everyone would prefer to buy non-cloned products to ensure that the guys who actually developed the product get a fair cut of the proceeds, also the people who have developed a product generally have a confidence in it that people selling clones would not. People who have taken the time to develop a product generally know what it is that makes it tick, which should lend to an integrity regarding the quality of manufacture and subsequently to give a high standard of customer service. You don't want people talking   about something you have worked hard on and are proud of!

I do agree with Scotty, however that vendor customer service and price are key in my decision making process when it comes to making a purchase. Carl raises a good point too, that we (speaking on behalf of us noobs)  are not always aware of what products might be cloned and sometimes even which is the clone of which. (And back to agreeing with Scotty) it can be a real PITA to actually find that information, unless of course we can just ask Unseen...!

I think with the growing popularity and success of the DRL and others, now the hobby is starting to get big cooperate backing that the guys who are developing top tier hardware should receive some of that backing which will go into further development leading to less of a negative impact from cloned products? Obviously the impact on smaller independent business will remain though.



Interesting topic....

There's a big difference between a clone and an 'inspired by'.

Clones are direct copies and attempt to pass themselves off as the thing they are a copy of. Such things inherently take money away from the designer (who should be rewarded) and put it into the pockets of the cloners (who shouldn't be rewarded).

Designs that are 'inspired by' another design are fine by me. Rarely is a design completely new, most designs in any business draw upon what has gone before them and try to improve on the original. Progress is often incremental and if being inspired by another design was not allowed, progress would be very slow indeed.

Too many people who buy clones attempt to justify their behaviour by claiming that the original is too expensive. These are also the same people who would buy a fake Rolex or similar luxury item and have the stupidity to actually wear it in public. In the end, all they are doing is making themselves look like the fools they are and helping to discourage the real innovators from continuing.

I've seen this before in the early days of electronic cigarettes. Many talented designers gave up after repeatedly seeing their original designs available from fasttech a month after they had released them at 1/5 of the price they could make them for.

So, if you knowingly buy clones of things, I have no time for you or your rationalisations.

Well, "knowingly" is the key word. It is sometimes hard to know. If I buy a Betaflight F3 FC from banggood (I haven't), is that a clone, or a licensed product? Before you answer, I know if I buy a RunCam Split from banggood, it is a licensed product (not a clone). The lines are blurred so often, and my point is I'm not going to research every one. Lazy? - OK, guilty as charged. It is not an effort I am willing to make for everything I buy. When I see "Oh, don't get that from banggood, it's a crappy clone", then I will look a little closer. Otherwise, I'm happy being a lazy happy customer.

Of course, if someone unknowingly buys a clone then I can't reasonably blame them for it.

When it comes to the SP Racing F3, that's an interesting question. Mr. Clifton never has them in his store any more, so it's not actually possible to buy them from the designer. In that case, then if you want that specific flight controller then you have no choice but to buy the clone. More fool Mr. Clifton for not supplying the demand I'd say!

(04-Sep-2017, 04:13 PM)unseen Wrote: Of course, if someone unknowingly buys a clone then I can't reasonably blame them for it.

When it comes to the SP Racing F3, that's an interesting question. Mr. Clifton never has them in his store any more, so it's not actually possible to buy them from the designer. In that case, then if you want that specific flight controller then you have no choice but to buy the clone. More fool Mr. Clifton for not supplying the demand I'd say!

This is a great point unseen. 

So I do feel justification for piracy or intellectual property theft in one scenario: The lack of appropriate means to purchase legitimately. To take a step back from our industry/hobby and into another area where folks debate the morality of piracy: Media (like music & movies)... If there is a rare album out there that I cannot buy anywhere, there is no mechanism to pay the artist in order to get a hold of that music, and I have a friend who can burn me a copy, I am very likely to feel OK with piracy. The one thing a intellectual property owner can do that I think is basically begging to be stolen for doing is to remove their work from the general market. 

So back to the hobby and your example above. If there was a part that someone was making and they bailed from the industry so you can't get the original any more but there is someone in China making clones you bet you that I'd buy a clone without any guilt in my heart! 

As for incremental value add inspired by previous innovations, that's how stuff evolves! So I am with you on that one too.

(04-Sep-2017, 03:23 PM)unseen Wrote: Too many people who buy clones attempt to justify their behaviour by claiming that the original is too expensive. These are also the same people who would buy a fake Rolex or similar luxury item and have the stupidity to actually wear it in public. In the end, all they are doing is making themselves look like the fools they are and helping to discourage the real innovators from continuing.

This is another interesting point, that I was considering taking up earlier, but thought I had gone on for long enough.

It really depends on what one personally cares about, ie. I have no interest in 'designer' labels, be it trainers/sneakers, suits, shirts, shoes, Rolex watches or Louis Vuitton handbags for my wife! I would feel absolutely no qualms buying a pair of fake Nike trainers, I would not go out of my way to find fake trainers and I wouldn't buy them if I didn't like them. I certainly wouldn't attempt to impress anyone with any pair of shoes, considering the sole impressive act is to make the choice to buy some shoes! The reality of the appalling pay and conditions of the people who work in Nike factories making trainers is widely recognized, and whether I buy fakes or a different brand, Nike have lost my money on that sale. 

The same goes for many fashion items which, in my view, are ridiculously expensive, simply to create a product priced and tailored specifically to promote elitism, almost invariably at the expense of the people who do the actual manufacturing. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that fashion designers shouldn't be paid for their work, but personally I don't see any 'innovation' in covering nudity, to me its all just glorified fig leaves! So what if a designer spent 130 hours drawing a picture, what makes their time any more valuable than the people who carry out the mundane day to day stitching of the designs, week in week out? Surely they deserve a fair share of the proceeds, they are the ones who actually provide the quantity of product which allows the business to turn a profit after all?

And on the subject of $1,000,000 watches, it's a piece of jewelry with the singular added practicality of being able to keep time. Pretty much everyone has a phone which has the time on it!? My phone can even tell me what it was I set an alarm for!

Basically what I am trying to say is that I will happily spend a bit extra to put money into a product I like or to back a business who's practices I agree with, I might spend more than just a bit extra to ensure I receive a quality product (especially tools), however I will go out of my way to ensure that I don't buy into the illusion of elitism created by a designers ego.

ok rant over!